A Conversation about Christianity and Football with Kirk Cousins

Life and Books and Everything — Clearly Reformed

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A Conversation about Christianity and Football with Kirk Cousins

May 13, 2024

Life and Books and EverythingClearly Reformed

Kirk Cousins has been an NFL quarterback for 12 years. Before that he played at Michigan State (where he and Kevin met). Before that he was a barely-recruited teenager playing at Holland Christian. And before that, he was a kid in Chicago whose dad helped start Willow Creek (yes, that Willow Creek). If you want to know more of this story, and hear a lot of football talk, you won't want to miss this special LBE episode with the new Atlanta Falcons QB.

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Transcript

Greetings and salutations. Welcome to Life and Books and Everything. I am Kevin DeYoung, senior pastor at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, North Carolina.

If you're watching this online, and if you're not, you should be, and you already know, I do have a special guest that has been a long time in the making. None other than Kirk Cousins. Yes, the football player, and more importantly, wonderful Christian man.

Kirk Cousins, thank you for making time. You are understandably hard to track down, so I appreciate you making a few moments here to chat. Yes, thanks for having me on.

It's great to be with you, Kevin. You know, you have great memories, which we can get to of you and I back in East Lansing, Michigan, on the Michigan State campus. And, you know, our lives have taken different paths since those days.

Well, I'm not a professional football player. That's true. But God has really had his hand over both of our lives, and we both wanted to just follow him one step at a time, and so it's fun to take a moment now and catch up and kind of discuss one another's journeys.

Yeah, that's great. So, yeah, thank you so much. And just for anyone watching or listening at some point, several Deung children may rush in here after school gets out because they know I'm talking to Kirk and so they want to wave and they want to say hi.

So we'll bear with that. I can't wait to see them. There are more Deung children than when we were together in East Lansing.

I know that. And there were a lot of Deung children then. There were also the ones that I know or have met before are now much, much older, so it'll be fun to see them.

They often show to their friends a photo that they have of you on the couch at our house and only probably half of them were there. Yes, we have nine kids. The oldest is 20, the youngest is three, so you maybe get a few of them in here.

So Kirk's already alluded to it that, of course, Kirk was a great Michigan State Spartan and at least for the last two years through our mutual friend, Eric Swanson, shout out to Swany, who still keeps in good touch with both of us. Eric was an intern at the church, but he also worked as a manager. What exactly was his role in the football team, but there was a season there for a couple of years where Kurt came to university reform church and with Kurt came a number of other good Christian guys and we got to know each other and have kept touch and touch here and there over the years.

And I doubt very much Kirk that you are often telling people, hey guys, I knew Kevin Deung, but it does help me sometimes with my kids and their friends to say, hey, I'm going to talk to Kurt. So thank you for giving me that calling card. No, it goes both ways.

Your name has come up more often than you think, especially now my wife being from Atlanta and us living in the southeast part of the country. I run into a lot of people who either attend your church or have cross paths with you. And obviously you continue to write books and produce content that is very edifying for many people, including me and it's fun to know that I know the person behind the content and that you're the real deal.

And so thanks for your continued impact and ministry and influence on so many and for standing for truth and teaching people about truth with a capital T and I'm one of those people. And we used to gather, you may or may not remember, but we would gather, I think Friday mornings maybe, I had a little time. It was either my junior or senior year on the football team and Michigan State and I would drive over to the church and we'd just meet for anywhere from a half hour or 45 minutes, just to kind of talk through what I was dealing with, almost like counseling, but just talk through it and talk about what the scripture has to say about it.

And so I remember that fondly and so grateful for that insight you gave me many years ago. Well, I remember I shared the story with people. We were at Pizza House and I was trying to pick up the tab for the pizza and you said something like, you know, I'm sure it'd be okay, but just compliance like you better just let me pay for the pizza.

Oh, how times have changed. We could have liked the church could have inked you to a lucrative NIL deal or something. Yes, exactly right.

It's a different world now. It looks nothing like my experience in college and it certainly has been a empowering for the student athletes, that's for sure. But very foreign to what I experience.

I remember finishing games and, you know, you're playing in front of 70,000 people, millions more watching on TV and my parents would come to the game. They'd leave to go back home and I'd say, Mom, can you give me 20 bucks so I could go to a movie tonight? So very different, very different climate now. Well, let's work backward a little bit and just talk about your life and football.

So you can say as much or as little about this as you want, but I got to ask. So you signed with the Falcons, your wife's from Atlanta. You're excited about that.

Congratulations. We're excited to cheer for you. How are you feeling about that? The draft was a big surprise.

What's that been like? How do you process when something like that happens? Yeah, we like everything, especially in my football journey. We've always prayed about next steps and what to do. And I've always kind of treated my career as one year at a time, especially as I've gotten older, where you know that next year is not a guarantee.

So let's just take it one year at a time and see what the Lord is leading us to do after that. And, you know, tore my Achilles last year, which we can get to and was coming off that injury and didn't really know what was in store. But we just asked the Lord to lead us and make it clear.

And we felt he really led us to Atlanta for a variety of reasons. And so, you know, my wife is from here and that's been real positive for her family as well. So we signed here in March and have just kind of been getting settled.

Getting our feet under us. There's so much change when you go from where you were for six years to suddenly move. All new teammates, you know, a new house.

Everybody socially, relationally, you know, the church, everything is new. You're starting over, hitting a reset button. And that can be a lot.

But, you know, we're also looking forward to that chance to kind of have a new start and see what we can build here and see what the Lord wants to do with our time here. But one thing I've always reminded myself of when I wonder, you know, what's in store or feel that pressure that comes with playing professional sports is to remind myself that I don't own the football career. I'm a steward.

And so God owns it. And so if God wanted it to end and I had to retire this spring, then that's what I got to do. Or if he had directed me elsewhere, he directs me elsewhere.

My job is to steward that which he gives me. So he's given me this many years in the league. He also allowed my Achilles to be torn last fall.

So it's not my job to control some of those big picture things. It's my job to just steward that which he gives me. And I'm trying to be a great steward of this opportunity.

He's now given us in Atlanta. What did you think when you tore your Achilles, you're having a great season. I mean, it was on pace, I think, to be your best season or one of your best seasons.

And you even hopped on one leg off the field and it looked like, oh, yeah, maybe Kirk, you know, tweaked and ankle. Did you know right away and what went through your head? Oh, I'm having this great season and something just popped. This was the first real major injury of my football career.

I broke my ankle in high school, but I was only out for a few weeks and I didn't have to have surgery. So this was the first time where something like that had happened. And so I didn't know what took place.

I thought I had just tweaked my ankle. And it didn't take our foot and ankle surgeon very long on the sideline to know that it was more serious than that, that it was a torn Achilles I was done for the year. And it was very difficult to process, to understand.

I had an expiring contract. I felt that we as a team and I as a player were really ascending at the moment that I got hurt. I felt like we were poised to do something special that year.

And so it was difficult to realize that it was just all ending so abruptly for me. But again, I was forced to recognize that I don't own this career. I'm a steward and I got to trust God.

And it's one thing to say it. But in that moment now you got to live it. And like anybody who goes through an injury, there's a bit of a real disappointment initially that you have to endure and get through.

But God's been faithful every step of the way since that injury. And I believe from that injury, he'll give me a story to tell and an ability to maybe help identify with others going through tough times up ahead. And now the focus is kind of on getting this thing back to 100%.

We're close. But I got a little more work to do to close the gap. So that's really where my mindset is now.

So let's hope you play out this whole career. Get another contract. Get a couple Super Bowls.

That's what we hope. But people must ask you what's next in five years, ten years. What do you think in post football? You got a lot of good things I think the Lord could do with you.

I'm a planner, so I'd like to be able to have an answer for that question, but I don't. My wife is also, you know, very open to whatever the Lord will bring. So we just try to keep an open mind.

We want to make sure we don't put God in a box. We want to make sure we let him be God. And if he wants to surprise us with something completely off our radar with what's next, we need to be prepared or open or make ourselves as a leader.

That's available for whatever that is. So I think it's important for us to keep an open mind, understand God tends to surprise people. So, you know, we need to be ready for that and see where he leads.

But it's a blessing to know that I won't be 40 years old or I'll be a little after 40 years old and I'll have, you know, another half of my life to live. God has given us, you know, the finances to be able to have a lot of freedom when it comes to how we would use our time. And so we're going to want to take the posture of, you know, open hands and say, Lord, we've got time.

We've got energy. We've got a platform. What would you like us to do to be obedient to you and to have impact and be a part of your kingdom.

So we will see where he leads. But to this point, I think he's still kind of keeping us one step at a time in the football journey. And when we get to the next step, I'm sure he'll give us that next step.

But I have learned in my faith journey, God doesn't tend to give you three or four steps down the road. He tends to give you, he does give you the next step. But he doesn't give you more than that.

And so I have to really just take the next step and then trust him from there. Well, I'm thinking, I think politics, broadcasting, ministry, business, people have lots of options for you. But here's some numbers.

You probably don't go and look these up. But I just did 39,471 passing yards, 66.9%, completion percentages, career numbers, 270 TDs, 98.2 passer rating. Let's not forget 19 rushing TDs.

Those ones. I usually doesn't get thrown in with my career statistics. I appreciate you doing that.

And before last year, so these would be higher, but before last year, people would be surprised to know maybe 23rd all time TD passes, 28th all time passing yards, 8th all time QB rating, 6th all time completion percentage. I mean, really Kirk, did you ever think you would, that would be your story? Did anyone, even your dad, think that this would be the Kirk Cousins story coming up on 40 or 40 years old in a few years? No, I just shared that I find God to be surprising. And I think those statistics or those accomplishments would be a great example of that.

How Ephesians chapter 3 verse 20 talks about how God is able to do a measurably more than all we could ask or imagine. And our family had prayed that prayer going back to my college years that with this football journey, we're on that God would do a measurably more. And he's answered that prayer many times over, including some of those longer term statistics you read.

So I guess I'm in a position knowing that I have more football behind me than ahead of me, where I wonder, the Lord's taking me this far. He's quote unquote running out of time a little bit, if you will. And I wonder what he's got here down the stretch in the final turn of my career.

And I'm excited to see what ends up happening. When I think about those career numbers, and of course I'm a friend and a fan and so I'm biased, but I think you've gotten an unfair rap sometimes from media folks. I won't ask you to agree or disagree with that, but I'll just ask you, you know, how do you handle that spiritually, emotionally? You know with what you've done, but you also know what some of the narrative is going into seasons and games.

And I think in particular with you, Kirk, it just seems to, it can seem to get polarized. And I've really felt for you and genuinely I've prayed for you in that. How do you do that? Is that just part of life as a professional athlete or do you think there's some unique lessons and things you've had to learn? Well, I think there are lessons to be learned.

I also think that any time you're in a place of leadership or a place of influence or you're blessed to be in a place where people's eyes are on you, there's going to be critics. So I, when you realize Jesus had critics and he was perfect, you're probably not avoiding that. So to think that, oh, I wish I could just, you know, if I could just get to a place where I'm in this role, but I don't have the criticism, you're going to be waiting a long time.

You know, I say the quote off to my Margaret Thatcher that if my critics saw me walking on water, they would say it's because I can't swim. People are going to find something they don't like and they're entitled to their opinion. So I have to remind myself of that.

And I keep going back to being a steward, not an owner. And I steward and I need to steward well. And if I'm facing some criticism that is constructive and that would tell me, hey, I can be a better steward than what I'm currently being, then I need to hear that and apply it.

But to the degree that it's something that isn't helpful or might not be correct or accurate, then I also need to be able to discern that and then say, hey, I just got a steward what I'm given. And the owner, you know, if you will, God has to kind of sort out the rest. So I always try to leave room for God, if you will.

You know, Romans talks about leaving room for God's wrath. I think you could take the word wrath off in that scripture and just say leave room for God, period. And I think that's a healthy way to live.

When the Netflix QB series came out a year or so ago or last summer, that was a great shot into what Kirk is really like in your family life. And just anyone out there, if your kids are going to watch it, just be where it's real. And there's lots of swearing, not from Kirk, but just following the other guys around.

But it's really well done. And Netflix kind of, I mean, struck gold by getting Patrick Mahomes, who won the Super Bowl. You had an amazing year ended in a disappointing loss, but you had the greatest single comeback in NFL history.

And then following Marcus Marietta, who really shows just the ups and downs of a professional quarterback. How did that come about? You know, what convinced you to do that? Was it invasive? Were you pleased with how it turned out? I just heard so many people were really moved and blessed. I'm not using that as exaggerated word by what they saw from you in that series.

Yeah, we didn't have much to hide. So when it first was presented to us, I thought, yeah, this is fine. I'm not.

There's nothing in my life that I'm not willing to share. So I thought it was a unique opportunity that we wanted to take advantage of if they were going to do it. I knew it would be very important.

You know, they can't include the whole season. They can't include every moment. So you're always wondering, I wonder what they're going to pick or what they're going to choose to highlight throughout the year that took place.

And so we were praying about that. And we really prayed that God would allow at some point in the episodes that our faith would come through. Whether overtly or subtly, we wanted this Netflix show to really shine a light and point people to Him.

And in one way or another, I felt like that was accomplished. And so that was a real positive as well. And I think it did cause people who wouldn't otherwise get to know me in a personal way to be able to better, you know, see how I tick, how our family operates, what matters to us, how we go about our business.

And we were grateful that the opportunity to show people that. I think a couple of the big takeaways for even big fans like me was one, how much mental acuity you need to be a quarterback in the NFL. And I think we all know this, but just the punishment.

I mean, in a typical season, is it from week one on that your body really, really hurts? Or do you have, is it like you at least get to week seven? Tell us about the physical toll it takes on your body and then the mental work you have to do, especially as a quarterback with the playbook and everything under your control. Yeah, on a Sunday to Sunday game schedule, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you don't feel very good. You feel like you just got in a car accident and you've got to recover.

Your body has a great way of getting back to work. And I find that when I get back on the practice field and start moving again, as difficult as that can be on Wednesday, that usually I feel better. Hey, there's, there's one here.

Oh, no. Here's another. You can't see this on.

Oh, oh, step up here. This is jump up. They can't hear you.

Oh, it's Benjamin. That's Benjamin. So these kids were not born.

No. Is Paul coming in? When I was in East Lansing with you. No, they weren't.

Benjamin or Mary, do you have a question for Kirk? No. They just want to give a thumbs up. They're a big fan.

We're going to have to swap out the Vikings jersey for the Falcons jersey when he gets jersey day. A lot of family and friends haven't do the same thing. It's not easy.

So continue about that. You're talking about the physical mental toll. Yeah.

I just turn it over from Sunday to Sunday is difficult. But usually you get to kick off on Sunday and as difficult as it is to get there. Usually you're feeling pretty good again by Sunday, whether it's the adrenaline or whatever it may be.

But I do think as you get older, it's harder to recover as fast. And so that will be my challenge moving forward is just to make sure I can get back on the field quickly after each big hit. And I expect to do that.

And the road map has kind of been set with the Tom Brady's and the Drew Brees's and the Peyton Manning's. These guys all played into their 40s and had great success. Some of their best years were in their late 30s and 40s.

So that gives me hope that it can be done and hopefully will be in my career too. So let's go back to your childhood. I've been meaning to ask, did you grow up a Bears fan? I did.

I grew up in the Chicago suburbs before I moved to Michigan in 2001. So I was a Chicago sports fan, period, which included the Bears. And as time moved on, I guess I became less and less attached to them.

But going back generations for our family, big time Bears fans. And so it's always special for me to play at Soldier Field and realize that if there was ever a team in the NFL to play for, against, it would remind me of just how far God has taken his football journey. For me and my life, it's the Chicago Bears because of how it takes me back to my childhood and dreaming of being a pro athlete someday.

And I get to be one of the, you know, 1% of 1% who gets to experience it. Yeah, I was born in Chicago, so I still am a Bears fan. Sorry, is Bears and Kirk are my... There's a lot of excitement around the Bears right now and they've drafted, you know, a couple of big time players in the top 10 picks.

And they've got some big time players and coach Iber Flus has really built up that team and that defense over the last couple of years. So we played them twice a year and I watched them get better and better. And I think they're a team on the rise.

Yeah, well, we can hope so. You tell us about, so you grew up a Christian, your dad, not many people maybe made this connection. Your dad actually was with Bill Heibels, starting Willow Creek.

Talk about the influence of your parents and Christian upbringing and some of that history. Yes, thanks for asking. I think it's a fun story.

My dad grew up in Chicago suburbs. Bill Heibels was essentially my dad's high school youth pastor. And so Bill had a big impact on my dad's life simply coming out of high school.

My dad was going to become a coach. She loves sports, loves leading people. So he said, I'm going to go to Taylor University in Indiana and I'm going to become a coach.

And after his freshman year, he tells the story that Bill came over to my dad's parents' house, my grandparents' house at the time where my dad was living and said, I want to start a church, Don, would you join me in starting this church? And my dad viewed Bill as a youth pastor. So his first question was, you mean like a church for adults? And Bill said, yeah, this would be, you know, a local church that would, you know, be ministering to all ages. And he said, you want me to join you? I'm going to become a coach.

He said, well, it would involve you transferring back to get a ministry degree here in the Chicago area while simultaneously getting this church started. And so my dad basically became the associate pastor or the number two guy, if you will, along with a few other people. And, you know, and Bill had so many leadership skills that, you know, he was able to teach my dad.

And my dad watched that church grow from, you know, Bill driving over one day to ask if he wanted to start it, to seeing it become arguably, you know, top one, two, or three largest churches in America. And my dad learned so much about ministry, about organizational leadership, about how you don't put God in the box and what he's capable of doing. And, you know, that still influences him to this day in terms of the ministry he now leads in Orlando.

And we grew up, you know, as a son of a pastor, so I'm a PK pastor's kid. And as a result, you don't get very far without the gospel being shared to you. So I remember being seven or eight years old and very, you know, clearly being presented the gospel and praying the prayer to accept Jesus into my life, to be on the throne of my life that I'm a sinner.

I need a Savior that's going to be Jesus. And so there's only so much at seven or eight years old that you can really understand about what that means. So I remember as I got older realizing, okay, it's not all that easy to trust God and to obey God on a daily basis.

That requires a commitment and a belief and a faith. And probably was probably mid high school when I realized that to be a disciple of Jesus is different than to just be a fan of Jesus. And by the time I got to college, I had really made a decision that, okay, I'm going to be a fully devoted follower even if that costs me something rather than just be a fan of Jesus and then kind of do what I want with my life.

So college was a great test for that. And then God's really, you know, followed me on that journey ever since. And I go back to Proverbs 3, verses 5 and 6, which have kind of become my life verse, which says, trust in Lord with all your heart.

Don't lean on your understanding and all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your steps. And I feel once I made that my life verse, God took me up on it. And He was going to allow the circumstances of life to force that verse to become very real and to have to live it.

And so I warn anybody who says they're going to make a life verse or have a life verse to be careful because God will take you up on that. And He's going to show you the truth of that scripture in ways that you may not realize He can do. So that's really been my journey.

And it continues to be that Proverbs 3, verses 5 and 6 is really the roadmap for my life. You talk there, it's a good distinction between being a fan and being a disciple. And my sense, you know, following football is it's probably not too controversial to be a Jesus fan in the NFL, but it's always a challenge to be a disciple.

Is it harder or easier than people think to be a real committed Christian in the NFL? Well, it's probably no different than any other workplace environment or student at a school. I think we all know that there's a difference between just being a fan of Jesus and then not really having an impact, how you conduct yourself, how you live your life, and then realizing that, oh, I could follow Him even if it costs me something. And you read His teaching in the Gospels and you realize, oh, if I were to do that, that would actually be challenging.

That would hurt. I don't know that I want to do that. And that's when you realize, okay, there's a different level here of what it means to really follow Jesus.

And there's a reason that many people turned away and said, we're not going to continue to follow because it would be challenging, but there's also so much freedom. And that's kind of the juxtaposition you have is that while you're dying to something, you're also finding the fullness of life at the same time. And so that's what I've experienced is that when you try to hold on to life, it's really that you end up losing it.

And when you're willing to give up your life, that's when you truly find it. And that's the way of the cross. And I happen to live it through a football journey.

But yes, God has always provided a remnant of believers, whether it was Michigan State, the other teams I've been on, I've never felt alone. I've also never felt like it's been the majority of the team, but I've never felt alone. And so in that sense, it hasn't been overly difficult because I've always had a group of guys around me that are in the same, carrying the same perspective too.

Who are some of your close friends in the NFL? Anybody listening to it, Kirk would want to list all thousand of you. But you got some real good guys on current team or former teams that you just text after a hard game and they're really there for you? Yeah, we joke that the NFL stands for not for long. And what ends up happening relationally so much is that you get this close friend, you build this relationship with them and then you're on another team or they're on another team or they retired.

And that's happened far too often in my career, even with support staff, just the level of turnover and change that I wish were not the case. So it's made it difficult relationally. I would say at Michigan State, there was far less turnover and that allowed you to stay connected and really build a bridge in a relationship with people.

But certainly, there are teammates I've had through the years. Many of them I don't see as much anymore, but I expect to be a friend for life and know that you're only a text or a phone call away. And the Adam feelings, the Brian O'Neill's, the Garrett Bradbury's, Washington, Kendrick Goldston, Will Compton.

There's really, like you said, I could go on and on, but I expect to build more here in Atlanta and I'm already been very impressed with the caliber of person here in the Atlanta locker room and think that builds well for us on the field and off the field moving forward here. So go back. You're a quarterback at Holland Christian.

You weren't all that recruited is my understanding, but Michigan State came through kind of at the end. What were you thinking? And at that point in your life, if somebody asked you the most audacious goal you could have as a quarterback, what would it have been? I broke my ankle, my junior year of high school. So I didn't get recruited heavily.

My junior year wasn't going to get recruited heavily. I came from a small school, didn't play on the varsity early as a sophomore. So break my ankle, my junior year.

So now that really only leaves me my senior year to get recruited. I was undersized, wasn't a big, strong, fast player. I was a six foot two, 170 pound high school senior who ran probably a five second 40.

So there wasn't a lot there if you didn't really peel things back and watch me throw and watch me read defenses. And that would require a deeper dive. So not many schools came after me.

I had a couple offers in late in the process. I walked off the field, my last high school football game, walked off the field with zero scholarship offers. Ended up getting a couple offers from Western Michigan and Toledo around Christmas time.

Michigan State was having conversations, but they had explained that there were five quarterbacks who they had already offered a scholarship to. And if any one of those five committed and took the scholarship, they wouldn't be able to offer me. What ended up happening was a couple of weeks later they called because they said those five guys all decided to go elsewhere.

So congratulations, you were our sixth best option. Here's a scholarship. And so I started, you know, behind the eight ball, if you will, knowing that I really wasn't the first choice.

I've got an uphill battle here. But again, Proverbs 3, you know, God's leading us to Michigan State. Let's just follow him, trust him and see where he leads next.

We'll take this next step and go from there. And that's what we did. And yes, I, you know, my dream, when I broke my ankle, I was just trying to play college football.

That was my dream. And I thought breaking this ankle means I won't get to play college football because I won't get recruited. My dad said God's a lot bigger than broken ankle.

Kirk, you don't know what's going to happen. Just trust God. So I signed a scholarship about a year and a year and a half later and realized, yeah, God's a lot bigger than a broken ankle.

And yet at the time, I had no idea just how far God would take this journey. So, you know, it's just been a constant deal of where's the next step and where's God leading. And he keeps surprising me.

So I know you're a humble guy. You don't want to brag on yourself. But what's the secret sauce for you? So you just talked about your metrics there.

You've gotten to be a bigger guy since then. But I think it's safe to say you could maybe outrun Tom Brady in a 40, but not, you know, not all the quarterbacks in the NFL. But you've had an amazingly successful career.

What are the, you know, the couple of things that have been the keys to your success as a quarterback? I think there are traits of quarterbacking that are helpful, like being big, strong and fast. But they're not the foundation. And too many times when you evaluate, you treat traits like a strong arm, height, size, as if it's the foundation.

When, yeah, I'm not going to turn down two equal players. If one's bigger, one's got a stronger arm. I'll take the one who's bigger with a stronger arm.

But those are down the line traits that too often they get treated as core traits. I think when you look at the Tom Brady's, the Peyton Manning's, the Drew Brees's, the Aaron Rodgers, the core traits that don't seem to be absent among them all is the ability to assimilate information quickly, both, you know, visually and also just mentally processing. I think it's also, you know, accuracy, throwing the football that you're very, very accurate, the ability to relate well to people, to lead people well, such that when you step in the huddle, there's 10 other guys there who play better because you are in there leading them than someone else.

And that's a very difficult trait to evaluate, to identify, but you know it when you see it and when you're around it. And so I think those are the core traits that you really can't afford to not have. Once you have those, now let's look at arm strength and size and height and all that.

So I would like to think for the most part, the accuracy is a trait I have. The ability to assimilate information quickly is something God gave me and then the ability to influence and lead people is something I'm always trying to get better at doing because I understand it is such a core piece of playing the quarterback position. So you get under center, under center, you're looking out, say there's 12 seconds on the clock and you got a snap at five.

So you got seven, eight seconds, what are you looking for in those seven, eight seconds? Then when you snap, you maybe have a couple, three seconds before you got to throw the ball. What's the whole mental process that you need to see in pre snap and then the few seconds you have after you get the ball? It's a great question. We break the huddle.

The first thing I look for is that play clock because you mentioned it. You may only have 12 seconds. So that really dictates the entire process.

Do I have 22 seconds? Do I have 12 seconds? Do I have five seconds? So first thing you're doing to break the huddle is look for that play clock and then it's a recognition of the defense. What front do I have? Am I getting a blitz? What coverage am I getting? Is the safety in the middle of the field? Are they playing in a two safety look? Much of that informs whether we stay with the play we have? Do we change the play and then you have motions? You don't usually don't just line up in a static formation and go. So it's a, okay, now that I've identified the defense, I have to move a receiver from one side of the formation to the other.

Make sure everybody's set. It may be a check to a second play. Get to that second play.

There may need to be a formation shift as well when you change to a second play. And then you have a snap count because you don't want the defense to know when the ball's being snapped. So you try to vary the rhythm of when you're snapping the ball so you may have a quick count.

You may have a longer count and so you try to change that up play it and play out to keep the defense guessing. So then you say, all right, what was our snap count and what's the play clock at now after going through all that information? And then if you're on the road with crowd noise, you need to go on a silent count so you don't use your voice because if you use your voice nobody would hear you. So there's a lot of variables.

There's a lot of organization. It's much like choreographing a dance move really before the snap and after the snap. And I tell people that after going through all that gymnastics to get the ball snapped, the job that you're actually paid to do now happens after the snap.

But so much does need to happen before the snap to even give you a chance to be successful in the real thing. Over your career, are there certain teams or coaches? I don't know if it's a bill of check or somebody else that you just know. Man, I love it, but I hate playing against this defense because they disguise everything.

They stunt or they're going to blitz me to death. Are there certain ones you just you knew was going to be a rough day at the office? I've always been in the NFC, so I've rarely had to play coach Belichick, thankfully. But the three times I have played him, I have great respect because he seems to consistently be a top 10 defense, even though the names and the players on that defense will change, that production didn't ever seem to change.

And I think he does a good job with coverages and saying, you think you've seen this coverage, but there's actually a wrinkle to it where it's not behaving like you're assuming. I think he does that as well as anybody. And then I think there are coordinators like Steve Spagnola in Kansas City.

They just came off to Super Bowl and he had a top five defense this year. And he's very multiple. And so you feel like, boy, on any point in the game, I could get one of 30 different looks.

And that kind of volume or feels like that kind of volume can really be a whale to prepare for. So those are a couple of guys that come to mind, but there aren't many weeks that I go into the game and feel like I've got a sense of what they're doing. In fact, if you play a coordinator where you think, I think we'll have it.

I think we got them. I don't think it'll be too tough. That's usually when you're way wrong and you're going to get surprised.

So there's a healthy tension there all the time. That's good. Let me, hopefully you can stay a little bit longer.

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Kirk, do you have, so when my kids are around the dinner table, one of the things, especially my seven year old likes to do, is she always daddy. Mommy, can we do roses and thorns, you know, highs and lows from the day? So I'm going to ask you, let's, let's start with Michigan State. Do you have, you know, a game, a play? Do you have a couple roses? And if you want, don't want to bring up painful moments.

Do you have a, oh, that was, that was an excruciating throw, loss moment. Give us some roses and thorns from Spartan years. Yeah, I think, um, winning on a Hail Mary against Wisconsin at home when college game day was there was as dramatic as it gets.

We had another dramatic win the year before against Notre Dame on a fake field goal. So those were a couple of the highs. You know, those are special moments.

I think the low would probably be losing the Big Ten championship game. The dream was to always play in the Rose Bowl. That's why you go to Michigan State is to, is to win the Big Ten and go to the Rose Bowl.

Was that against Wisconsin? It was against Wisconsin. It was against Wisconsin. It was against Michigan.

The punter. Correct. The final play of the game was 42 to 39.

There was less than a minute left. They were punting to us. So it's that quarterback moment, right? Where you have a chance to drive down the field with your team to get a field goal to tie the game or a touchdown would send us to the, to, to be champions and to go to the Rose Bowl.

And we, uh, run into the punter. It was a phantom call. It was a tough call to take.

Our punt returner happened to return all the way down to inside the five yard line. So we pretty much had the game at least tied if not one in that moment. And then there was a little laundry on the field.

And then they said that, you know, he ran into the punter and, and therefore it's a five yard penalty. Automatic first down Wisconsin went out there, took a couple of meals and the game was over. And it was difficult to feel like you would come that close to what the original goal was five years earlier and to not be able to go.

Is something still that doesn't really sit right with me? But it's what you sign up for when you play sports. That's the risk you take. And so that would be the low.

But I think more than anything and I took stock of this when it was over. When I was in it, I really didn't have awareness of it. But when I got done and went to the pros, I just made a list of, let's just chronicle all that took place in East Lansing over those five years.

And I, at the top, after writing it all down, I wrote, that was more blessed by God than I realized. And then I made the list and I thought, boy, if you had told me at 18 years old when I signed the scholarship that all this would take place, I would tell you, I mean, that right there is, is beyond living a dream. No matter what happens beyond that.

So God's so blessed my time at MSU. And it really reminded me that nothing is too big for him. And I remember being a freshman and feeling like reading the verse from John where it talks about, I am the vine.

You are the branches. Remain in me and I in you. You'll bear much fruit apart from me.

You can do nothing. And I had so much I wanted to do, quote unquote, at Michigan State. And I thought, he's saying that apart from him, I'm not going to do anything.

And so I thought, I just got to stay plugged in here. I got to, I got to, you know, be a branch connected to the vine. And if I do that, again, be a steward, the owners got to take care of the rest.

And when I got done at Michigan State, I realized, you know, I worked very hard as a steward, very hard. But God's a pretty good owner. And he knows what he's doing.

And boy, did he bless that, even though there were disappointments, even though there were many frustrations, including that loss in the big decision game, God was a good owner. And as a result, I said, what do I do with that? I got to trust him for the next chapter as I remember what he did during my college years. It seems like one of the most important things is knowing who you are.

And you've always had a good sense of that from your family and most importantly, your faith in Christ. Talk about what that means and especially in the low moments and criticism I remember talking to you. It's not like you looked to me for any football advice, but we were just talking.

And I think it was the next Notre Dame game, the previous one, there had been a pick. And then there was the next one. And you're such a smart, thoughtful guy.

You still had it in your head. That's what athletes do. And I remember talking about, yeah, well, who are you? Who am I? I mean, I get those things.

It's not just football players. How do you think about it and how does your identity in Christ help you keep pressing on with the inevitable ups and downs and public scrutiny in the kind of life that the Lord's given you? Yes, identity is a big deal. And I think God has a identity for each of us that as Christians we share, which is that we're a son or daughter or a co-air with Christ, which is mind-blowing.

But that's really a shared identity we all have as a Christ follower. But I think God has a specific identity for each one of us as to who He's wired us to be and the plans He has for us, and we have to allow ourselves to be postured in a way to hear that from Him and to receive it and then to live into that. And I think when we do that, that's when you really do experience life to the fullest because you are living life in the way that God designed you to do it.

And that's something that I want to continue to get better at. But yes, I remember phone interception against Notre Dame to lose a game. No, no, it's a part of my story and got allowed it to happen for a reason.

But I walk off the field, I remember pulling grass out of my face mask because I got hit on the play. And I remember listening to the deafening sound of 80,000 people cheering my failure because we're at Notre Dame Stadium and knowing we had lost the game and I'm walking back to a sideline to look at the faces of seniors who I had just let down. And I remember thinking, God, you allow this to happen.

I wish you didn't, but you did. You're bigger than this. You can do whatever you want with this, but it is comforting right now and one of the toughest moments of my life, of my sports career to recognize that my life isn't built on football.

My life's built on you. So football is going to do this. I'm going to throw picks to lose games.

That's going to happen. And I can go on and on in a sinful world of what's going to happen that I'm not going to like. So if I build my life on those things around this temporal world, that's not going to give me very far.

It's not certainly not going to give me much hope. But in this moment here, throwing this interception and failing at what I do, I still have hope because you're bigger than it all. And in being bigger than it all, you also love me and have a plan for me and have purposes and you promise to use this for my good and for your glory.

And wow, that's really comforting in that moment and those verses mean a little more to you when you're in those moments when they tell you it's the cancer is stage four. There's an initial boy, God, I wish that wasn't the case. I wish you were would just heal.

But even if not, the fact that you're all powerful, that you overcame the grave, that you have a plan for my life that you love me, boy, that's about a hope filled as I can get right now. And I don't know that the world has anything to offer that can match that. And so in that moment, throw in that interception, I felt that.

And I'd love to tell you, I never had to feel it again. But there've been a lot of football moments where I've had to feel that again too. And you use that, that's such a great perspective and you use that at Michigan State.

I remember they did the, you know, was it in the odd? They did a big, I stand with, I'm with Kirk, you know, everyone got the t-shirts, even coach D wore it, and you were able to, you know, share the gospel and share your testimony. So as long as I've known you, and I'm sure even before that, you've, you have lived out being a steward of what God's given you, and I commend you for that. What did you think, just talk about, and I know I want to respect your time, what did you think, did you ever think you were going to come back in that game two years ago? I was watching it, and when it started to happen, I started to tell my kids, you know, Frank Reich, he's got the record.

What is happening here? When did you think this might actually happen? I think we got to within two touchdowns, and there was still, we were going to have two more possessions, and I thought, hmm, this is interesting. I did not know it would be the largest comeback in pro football history. That was not known to me at the time.

But when we, when we, I had had games where we had been blown out in the first half, and then we had a great second half. We still lost the game, but we had a great second half, and I felt like, boy, that was something we could build on for the following week, and so at halftime, we were down like 33 to zero. My focus wasn't so much on winning the game.

It was more on just, let's have a great third quarter, and let's see if we could go into next week with some momentum based on winning the second half. And so we scored a touchdown in the third quarter, and I thought, well, at least we're not going to get shut out. And then we scored again, and I thought, all right, we're starting to get that momentum, I was hoping to get.

And then we scored a third time, and I looked up at the clock and realized there might be enough time here to do something. And it still took a few more breaks, but as God would have it, we were able to have the largest comeback in pro football history. And Frank Reich was also a believer texted me after the game.

And he said, Kirk, I just want to let you know that, you know, that's a special record to me, obviously. And I'm excited now to pass the torch to you. But he said, for 30 years, God used that story to tell literally, he said, thousands of people about Jesus.

And so he said, just know that that torch now has been passed to you. And so I take that seriously too, and I do pray and ask that God would use my football story and specifically that comeback as a way to let people know about him in the same way that Frank used it. And Frank, of course, was here in Charlotte as a player.

And then he worked at the, he was the president of the seminary here in Charlotte. He did our fundraiser several months ago and just did an amazing job. It was really, really encouraging.

One, just a couple of last questions. My friend Justin Taylor, I think, tweeted this out a few weeks ago. He said, this is my favorite moment of all time in any documentary.

And it was of you tucking your kids in after the playoff loss and telling them and just what, what was that like, you know, you got a camera on you, you got your kids, you got your precious family, you're stinging from this loss. And it was such a beautiful picture of, yeah, there's real disappointment in life. You don't pretend that doesn't hurt, but there's more important things.

And how did that play out in your own heart and soul knowing that cameras were rolling all the time? Yeah, that moment was answered a prayer because we were just going to be ourselves and live our normal life and didn't quite know, you know, how would our faith come through at the end of the day in the show? And so we were just doing what we do every night, which is to tuck our kids in, sing them a worship song and pray. And certainly some nights there were cameras, some nights there weren't, but that's just what we do. And I didn't think it would make it into the show, but it did.

And I think that was an answer to prayer. And then it was interesting because only three years earlier, we had won a playoff game and I was doing the on field interview after the game. And Chris Myers, the reporter, great guy asked me a question.

He said, you know, I know your faith is important to you. What does this a win like this mean to you on that level? And my answer was, well, you know, win or lose. God is still God and he's on the throne and that gives me peace regardless.

I mean, it's nice to win, but if we had lost today, God is still God and it was interesting that in a Netflix documentary, it captured the fact that the shoe was now on the other foot and we didn't win the playoff game. We lost the playoff game. And so now you kind of had to live the truth of what I had said three years ago after a playoff win, which is that when or lose, God's still God, we still worship him.

We're still obedient to him and we trust him for what's next. And that's what we were singing about with my son in that moment. It's also what we prayed about after that.

And we're going to trust him for what's up ahead. I wish I could tell you that, you know, I know what's coming or that it's filled with Super Bowls and years and years of success in the field. I don't know, but I know it's my job to be a steward to follow him closely and then to let him be the owner and and as Proverbs three versus five and success to direct my steps.

That's great. That's a great note to end on. Any last things you wish fans out there understood or Christians who are listening to this and go, man, I love this Kurt Cousins guy, ways that people can pray for you or what do you want to say to anybody who's a fan, but also a follower of Christ.

Well, thanks for listening to me ramble this long, but certainly I've been so grateful for your ministry. You know, I'm a big believer in people who have substance. And what I find in our world is we tend to celebrate people who have flash and while it's great to have both, you know, to have both flash and substance, I'd tell you, I'm a guy who really only has one.

I don't really have as much flash as maybe I'd like to have, but I try to close. Yeah, right. But I do try to have substance and I look at you, Kevin, as somebody who it can be debated whether or not you have flash.

I'm a Presbyterian, it's probably not, but it cannot be debated that whether or not you have substance and that's why your books sell as well as they do because of the truth that's contained in them. And I read a couple of years ago, what is the mission of the church? Had a big impact on me and what it means to be participant in the kingdom of God. And it was phenomenal.

And so I would just encourage people to continue to, you know, sit under your teaching, you know, God, God uses you as a voice to bring people closer to him. And so I would just encourage people to, you know, consume your content. Well, that's because it's going to sharpen, it's going to sharpen their lives.

And as Proverbs 27 says, you know, just as iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another and you've done that for me and you have for many other people. And so I'm grateful for that. And I need to now read your book about busyness.

I saw the title and I thought, I think he's speaking to me. I didn't tell him to write the book. But I think he's writing the book for me.

So I got to read that one. And and as you keep writing them, I'll keep reading them. Yeah, I didn't mean to cue you up to say all those kind things, but you're too kind and I appreciate it.

And just know you have fans, but more than that, you know, who love you as a brother and are cheering you on and do genuinely pray for you. And now that you're in the NFC South, you're going to get to Charlotte once a year. And so I don't know if there was a chance to see you or to see you play.

Of course, Sunday games are not not a great thing for a pastor. That's a conversation for another time. But please give my best to to your lovely wife.

You have two kids or three now. That's right. Two boys, Cooper and Turner.

They're six and five. So Julie and I are enjoying raising them and can't imagine having nine. I'm good with two, but you know, we're excited about what God's going to do in their lives as well.

Yeah. Well, that's great. We are cheering you on and we all know that you need fantasy football.

You need to get a receiver that Kirk's throwing to because it's always money. Whoever Kirk's going to be thrown to is going to is going to have a good year. But thank you so much and grateful for you taking the time to be on here.

And we are hoping for all the best for your Achilles and for this season and for tons of success. Awesome. Thanks, Kevin.

Really enjoy the conversation. Thank you to everyone and to my special guest Kirk Cousins. And until next time, glorify God and join forever and read a good book.