What if They Think Christianity Is True, but They’re Apathetic about Becoming Christians?

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What if They Think Christianity Is True, but They’re Apathetic about Becoming Christians?

March 27, 2023

Questions about what to say to coworkers who are convinced Christianity is factually true but are apathetic about actually becoming Christians and arguments for those with a Reformed view who think apologetics isn’t necessary and is a waste of time.

* How do I do apologetics evangelistically, particularly for some coworkers who are convinced Christianity is factually true but are apathetic about actually becoming Christians?

* What are some good arguments for those who think apologetics isn’t necessary and is a waste of time, especially for those with a Reformed view?

Transcript

[ Music ] [ Ding ] >> I'm Amy Hall, I'm here with Greg Cocal, and you're listening to the #STRSQ podcast from Stand to Reason. >> Yes, ma'am. >> All right, Greg.

Here's a question from Trent. How do I do apologetics evangelistically? Recently, I've convinced a few co-workers, Christianity is factually true, using the cosmological and minimal facts, arguments, et cetera. But they're apathetic about actually becoming Christians.

Any thoughts? >> Well, Apathy's one of the hardest things to deal with. It is unusual if they are convinced that God exists and that Jesus rose from the dead that they don't consider any action items associated with that conviction. Okay? So this is where the -- maybe it's appropriate to bring in the bad news.

Jesus said lots of things that are not good news. The gospel is good news, but the good news is only good news if there's bad news. And you can read the first part of Sermon in the Mount, chapter 5, you get past the Beatitudes, and then you get a very incisive characterization of what the law requires, which is perfection.

The whole section ends by Jesus saying you ought to be perfect as may Heavenly Father is perfect. He starts by saying your righteousness must exceed that of the prescribes and Pharisees. So you got to be holier than the pope in modern e terminology, maybe, in order to get to heaven.

Well, that's not good news. So this is the person who is God in the flesh who rose from the dead according to their conviction now based on the apologetics. And this person said this is the requirement.

Okay, now what? How are you doing with that? And then Jesus talks in John 3 that the light has come into the world and men love darkness rather than light for their deeds are evil. And later on in the chapter, he believes in me as not judge, but he does not believe the wrath of God abides on him. So if God exists and he is manifest in the son of God, in virtue of the resurrection, declared with power to be the son of God through the resurrection, Romans 1, 3 or so, of all of this follows, then he is the one who will stand in judge of these people who acknowledge God exists and Jesus rose from the dead.

Now what? Okay, that's the bad news. If these things are true, friends, that you just acknowledge this is not good for you. This is bad because Jesus is going to return and you will have and here's the way I characterize it.

I've been doing this for the last couple of realities at the end. I'll be doing it in two weeks. Oh, I'm not supposed to time date this.

Oh, I actually you will be in a few weeks. Okay, whatever this goes out. All right.

But what I say is the way I characterize it one day, you're going to stand before Jesus and he is going to demand an accounting of your life. And those books that are open there in Revelation 20, those books have every single thing that you ever did wrong. He's making a list and he's checking it.

He tries, he is not missing anything. You think you got to away with anything. You're not going to get away with the thing.

This is bad news. And here's the calculus. Either Jesus pays for those crimes or you to that one who is God who became a human and died and rose again from the dead will stand there with the holes in his wrists in the feet and the the gash in his side and he will stand there and bring judgment upon you.

Now, the way I characterize this is personal. I don't say he's going to judge all people. I say, Fred, he's going to judge you.

You are going to stand there and he is going to examine your whole life. And there is no way that you're going to escape when you are judged according to your deeds. Punishment is deserved.

Either Jesus takes it or you take it. That's, that's what you're facing. I think this situation, I do think it's somewhat unusual, but I think this situation is it really illustrates the biggest difference between Christians and non-Christians.

The biggest difference is not that I think it's true and they think it's not true. The biggest difference is I love God and they do not love God. I mean, just look at the demons.

The demons believe God is true, but they don't want to be Christians either. Being true is not enough. There's a spiritual problem that's happening here.

And this is, this is where you have to pray because the Bible says, you know, Jesus is sending the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will come and he will reveal righteousness and the coming judgment. And convict of sin and he'll do all those things in our hearts so that we'll actually hear, not just hear our own condemnation because I do think people who aren't Christians can hear that. I think about Festus or, yeah, I remember which one it is, but Felix or Festus who was listening to Paul, Paul was talking about the judgment to come and he gets scared and he says, Oh, well, we'll talk about this later.

Right, right. And there's no later. There's no later.

So there's a problem with they may be feeling that condemnation, but you have to press in on that as Greg was saying because they have to know their, their need for forgiveness. But they also have, you have to make sure they understand the gospel. And here's where I've noticed something really interesting and that is I can talk to an atheist and he will say, you know, Christianity is just about fear.

And, and I'll say, no, we, we actually don't have any fear because we have been forgiven. We've been saved. That actually removed all fear that God's love cast out fear.

And they literally cannot hear what I'm saying because their image of God is someone, they feel that condemnation. So there is a fear of God that is mixed up with that condemnation. And they assume that's how we're living as Christians.

So sometimes they can't even hear it. As the carrots and sticks. Yes.

They think that's how we're living. Right. And it doesn't matter how many times I explain the gospel.

They, they can't, they can't see it from our perspective. So you have to do both. You have to, you have to press in on the idea that they're under condemnation and you also have to tell them the gospel.

Yeah. And both of those things are necessary. And there also could be, they might be understanding the nature of the claim you're making.

I, I, it's, it's just hard to know exactly without talking to them. But I want to make an observation. You commented a few moments ago about the difference between them and us is we love God and they don't.

And I know Amy and I don't want anybody to misunderstand. Amy's not speaking of this in a meritorious sense. So because we love God, we're going to get saved and they don't love God.

So they're not going to get saved. It's the salvation that we experience that is creates and builds the love of God in our heart. And it's that what that's what makes the difference.

It isn't like, okay, now we're saved. Who we just got out from underneath the stick. And so no, that's not relevant.

Um, I mean, the punishment that that we no longer endure or have to face is relevant. But the point here is that being united with God through the new birth, who is what creates the love in our heart that makes us want to do what God wants. We are no longer in the fear of the stick.

Um, some, some Christian religions do level the stick quite a bit to get conformance. Uh, can, is that the very word? Conforming performance or conforming. So conformance, that kind of covers both words.

All right. That's the word economy here. Parsimony, they did wheel the stick, but illicitly because, uh, Hebrews makes it clear that this is not a factor anymore.

Um, that now we are in Christ and we are safe in Christ. And, uh, I want to, I wanted to read something in the Acts chapter 10, just in this light. Here you have Peter speaking to Cornelius, who is a God-ferer and has a tremendous spiritual pedigree here, but he's not a believer.

He's not, you regenerate. He is a believer in God, give it, give Zolm's and he's a God-ferer. But in the sermon in Acts 10, verse 42, um, he says, well, for start in verse 40, God raised him up on the third day.

So he's given this testimony of who Jesus is. You know of Jesus of Nazareth and he gives these points about Jesus. Verse 40, God raised him up on the third day and granted that he become visible, not to all people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God.

That is to us who ate and drank with him after he arose from the dead. Okay. Oh, good news.

Verse 42, and he ordered us to preach to the people and solemnly to testify that this is the one who has been appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead. Whoa. Of him, all the prophets bear witness that through his name, everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sin.

Verse 42, bad news. Verse 43, good news. That's how that works.

So even in the case we have this really positive, you know, guy moving right along Cornelius, you've got, uh, you've got a very straightforward characterization. Nothing about the love of God there. Just he's going to judge.

All right. And if you trust him, you receive forgiveness for the sins that he would have judged you for. That's the message.

We see the same thing in Acts chapter 17. Uh, as Paul speak in the area, Opagus, and, um, he says, therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance. God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent because he has fixed a day in which he will judge the world and righteousness through a man whom he has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising him.

From the dead. Now, of course, the resurrection, they could countenance. Uh, so they just scoffed and moved on after that.

But notice how Paul is very straightforward, even in a fairly sensitive talk here, clever as he's maneuvering, quoting Epicurean philosophers and everything there on Mars Hill. He still makes clear that judgment is coming. And the one who's doing the judgment is the one that God raised from the dead.

So this goes right back to this earlier discussion that, uh, that Trent is happy with his friends. So, um, the bad news is not given the short shrift in the book of Acts. I'll tell you what gets the short shrift in the book of Acts, the love of God.

It is not mentioned a single time. In the 13 times the gospel is preached in the book of Acts, the love of God is not mentioned a single time. Now, the love of God of manifest there.

There's no question. But notice that these are the people that were trained by Jesus to take the gospel. To everybody.

And they don't mention the love of God. Oh, their style and their approach was different. So, uh, you know, I mean, you could do it with that, what you want.

But the word love doesn't appear in the entire book of Acts. It's just not there. It's not the way they communicated the gospel.

It does seem that that was the motivation that they used to get their attention. And this is why the Holy Spirit was coming to convict of sins. And thank you for that clarification about us loving God because that is a gift.

That's why we need to pray because this is a spiritual problem. And, uh, we need to, we need to pray that the spirit will move in their hearts and change them so that they do love God. Because that is, it's their spiritual fallenness and brokenness that is the problem right now.

Which is the problem with everybody really. Because if we didn't have that, we would see God as he is. So, all right, here's a question from Tom in Michigan.

Hi, it seems I spend 50% of my time trying to convince pastors and churches that apologetics is biblical and needed in the church, especially in reformed circles. What are some good arguments or those that think up for those who think politics, apologetics isn't necessary and a waste of time, especially from a reformed view. All right.

So I would, I would ask your reformed friends. Uh, do you, do you think that Jesus was reformed? In his theology, did he understand sovereign grace the way you do? No, I think he was. And John's chapter six, John, chapter 10, et cetera.

Okay. Do you think the apostles were reformed? Yes, they agreed with Jesus. This is a biblical view.

Okay. So I'm just, all I'm doing is trade. I'm not arguing for reform theology.

I'm just, I'm trying to deal with the individuals that he identified. These are reformed. So, geez, so then if these, all these people agreed with you or you agree with them, you have the same theology.

Did they use apologetics in light of their conviction about sovereign grace? The answer is yes. All the time. Look at John chapter five.

I'm going to turn there right now because, um, I have this kind of listed handily. John, chapter five. Uh, I think it's just, yeah, John, chapter five.

Um, he says, Jesus says, if I alone testify about myself, my testimony is not true. Okay. So he's testifying about himself, but he says, I need to have corroboration.

There is another who testifies me. And I know that the testimony of Jesus throughout me is true. You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.

Now, what is that? He's saying I have evidential support from another person that testifies to me. John. Um, and then he says the testimony, which I have is greater than the testimony of John for the works, which the, the works, which the father has given me to accomplish.

The very works that I do testify to me. That the father has sent me and the father sent me. He has testified of me.

You've need to heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. Verse 30, you search the scriptures because you think that in them, your eternal life, but these testify of me, but you are unwilling to come to me. Verse 45.

But if you believe Moses, you would believe me for he wrote a B. Okay, so there's John. There's the supernatural works. There's the father.

There's the scriptures. There's Moses. There's one, two, three, four, five different lines of support that Jesus of Nazareth, the incarnate son of God who believes on your view in sovereign grace used as a support and evidence for his claims.

So if Jesus is using apologetics and this is one place, then why can't we? Why aren't we using apologetics? John chapter 20, John himself gives the reason why he wrote the entire gospel from which I just read. Many other signs and wonders that would be miracles. Jesus performed that I have not included here.

He only included seven in the gospel of John. Pretty good ones. But these I have included so that you would believe.

So according to John, the reason that he gave the gospel of John is to give evidence that resulted in belief. And the belief resulted. What was the nature of the belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God.

Okay. So that he's the way of salvation and God come down. And in believing have life in his name.

Okay. That's John, the whole gospel of John. He says he wrote to be an apologetic for Jesus in which he also records Jesus doing apologetics.

Now that's just the start. I cited Acts 17 earlier, Ariapagos, which he bared, bored testimony to by raising him from the dead. Acts chapter two, Peter's doing a sermon.

And Jesus rose from the dead and we are witnesses. I mentioned John chapter, rather Acts chapter 10 Cornelius. And he appeared to us.

We are witnesses of this. So what do you have throughout from top to bottom? Not just the gospels and the book of Acts, but you also have many examples of this in the Hebrew scriptures. Evidence being given that provides knowledge about God and Jesus in which we put our trust resulting in salvation, which salvation is a sovereign work of God on the Reformed view.

There is no contradiction. So my appeal to anyone, especially Reformed types, is that the Scripture teaches and uses apologetics. And if someone thinks that their theology agrees with Jesus and the apostles and Jesus and the apostles did this, then their theology ought to make room for it.

Duh. Yeah, I think that's a good argument. Of course, as I just finished saying in the last question, I do think the Holy Spirit has to work in a person's heart.

That goes without saying. But God doesn't zap people out of nowhere. He actually works through means.

And that means is somebody not just hearing the gospel, but understanding the gospel and believing it's true. All those things have to be present. I mean, just look at the parable of the seeds and the soils, right? The seeds are taken away because they don't understand.

That's what the text says. That's in the Matthew version of that. It has that indication, right? Matthew 17 or whatever.

Yeah. So if I tell somebody the gospel, the bare facts of the gospel, and they don't hear in what I'm saying, that I'm actually making a claim about reality. Because most people see religion as whatever makes me feel good, whatever is true for you, whatever you like is true in quotes.

Because they think all religions are not really part of reality. So if I just tell them the gospel, they could say, "That's a really nice story." What I have to communicate to them is that the gospel is not just a story. It is actually something true about reality.

And that's what apologetics does. It communicates that truth about the gospel, a necessary truth. In order for them to be saved, they need to believe that Jesus actually did die on a cross for their sins and rise again.

So that's what apologetics is doing. The reason why God saves people through the gospel is because he is doing all of this for his glory and to reveal himself to us. So that's why he saves through what he has done in this world and through knowledge of that.

Because that's the whole purpose of saving people so that we will enjoy him and glorify him forever. So that's why he does it through the gospel. So as a reformed person, that's how I look at it.

I look at apologetics as presenting an aspect of the gospel that's necessary for understanding the gospel. And that is the fact that it is true. Anything else to add to that, Greg? Before we close this.

That's just some frustrated because reformed folk are not the only ones, but of all people, they ought to be, understand that the means are part of the process to accomplish the ends that God has ordained. And it doesn't take away anything from sovereign grace. If it did, then Jesus who believed in sovereign grace would have been doing that.

And Peter who believed in sovereign grace, other of you wouldn't have done that. And Paul who believed in sovereign grace wouldn't have used apologetics, but there is no conflict there. So it just mystifies me why this is missed.

I think some people are concerned about the idea of communicating to the non-believer that they are in judgment over God. I've heard people say that that's what they're concerned about. But again, you can present the truth.

And the thing about truth is that God will either use it for the Holy Spirit to work in their life and change their hearts, or he will use it for their judgment because the more that is placed before them, that will judge them in the end because they're rejecting this truth that was given to them. So you don't have to present it in a sense of, hey, I'm going to let you judge God now. You're just actually showing them reasons that it's true.

I understand the sympathy. I have sympathy for the concern that presuppositionalists have, and those are all reform folk, that it seems like instead of the belief, the non-believer being in the dock with God judging over him, that now God is in the dock and the non-believer is judging over them. But I think that's a mischaracterization.

The fact is every person has to make an assessment. You can call it a judgment over God if you want, but that's a pejorative way of putting it. They have to make an assessment.

And this characterization, it seems to me, and they take things like the fool has said it is hard, there is no God, et cetera, et cetera. But if it turns out that the behaviors we're recommending and defending the gospel were the very behaviors that we see Jesus and the apostles performing, which they are, then they were not guilty of putting people in an inappropriate role of being the judge over God. They are in the appropriate role epistemologically of making an assessment.

That is a kind of judgment, but now they're equivocating on the word judgment. It's an assessment that's being made. And it's an assessment that even here in John chapter 5, Jesus calls for.

He makes all this reference to these different witnesses. If you don't believe me, believe John. If you don't believe John, believe the scriptures.

If you don't believe the scriptures in general, believe Moses, or believe the works that I do. What is Jesus saying? He's saying, judge me by these things. That's what he's saying, but he means judge and assess, not condemn.

And that's why I think the equivocation, I actually never thought of this particular point before in this discussion on this point with presuppositional apologists, but that's what it amounts to. It's an assessment. Assessments are judgments.

Also, there's other kinds of judgments that people make against God. That's what's going on here. And this is an assessment that even Jesus is joining the Pharisees for goodness' sake to make the subjects of his conversation right here.

Well, thank you, Greg. Thank you, Trent and Tom. We appreciate hearing from you.

If you have a question, send it on Twitter with the hashtag #strask or go through our website on our hashtag #straskpodcast page. This is Amy Hall and Greg Cocle for Stand to Reason.

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