#126 - From the slums of Kenya to new life - NT Wright meets Jey Mbiro

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#126 - From the slums of Kenya to new life - NT Wright meets Jey Mbiro

July 14, 2022

Justin and NT Wright speak to Jey Mbiro a Kenyan Christian who grew up as a street kid in the slums of Nairobi and was imprisoned aged just 9. They talk about poverty, the church in East Africa and Jey's own story of transformation thanks to Compassion.

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Transcript

the ask and he write anything podcast. Well hello and welcome to another edition of the show now a bit different today's show because alongside myself and Tom here on the ask and to write anything podcast. We're also being joined by Jay Jay and Biro who is someone who's got an amazing story Jay has found his niche as an adult as an event organizer radio host out in Atlanta Georgia and he's passionate about youth and the music but he's got an interesting background he was raised in one of the largest and poorest slums in the African continent in Kenya and had a very difficult childhood he's going to tell us about that and about what made the difference today this is one of those episodes Tom where you and I will be listening and learning and hopefully contributing as we go so looking forward to doing that.

Jay welcome along to the show tell us about yourself tell us what life was like growing up for you and where you grew up exactly. Well first of all thank you so much for meeting you both I'm excited for the conversation and thank you for the opportunity to be able to share my story and also share about Africa I'm always excited about those two things and so thank you so much. So I was born and raised just like you read in Kenya in a place called Matare.

Now Matare is one of the biggest slums that we have in the world. I was born in a community where mostly the kids are that are born the boys end up being thieves in the girls being prostitutes. Now it's a community that we grew up without having any role models and so when you grow up it's kind of you have to find your path to life or your parents or your brothers or somebody that should be showing you the path they are also trying to find their own path.

So you find most of the kids in my community they didn't even know what are they going to be what path are they going to follow what is life and so you try and find life for yourself and as you can imagine as a child that's very hard and so most of the time the kids would the parents will try and take us to school but it's not always easy because especially at the time you had to pay tuition fee you needed a school uniform and all that so most of the time you find the parents because they're even struggling to put food on the table they're struggling to get the basic needs so you find education as much as it's important and they know how important it is they're not able to cover that part and so what happens is that even though you're trying to go to school at some point you're not able to go consistently and so you find yourself at home you're just seated right there you don't have anything to do and so what would happen is that of course an idle mind is that there was a workshop it doesn't matter how old that mind is and so especially that mind is in a body that is hungry a body that is hungry would always think of how do I get fed how do I get fed and for us the options are you start stealing you start begging or you start doing other things for me because I didn't want to become a thief in Kenya when you're stealing they can shoot you they can stone you they can put that around around your neck and burn you to death so we know stealing is not an option at the beginning I said at the beginning because you start to look for the alternative and then you find yourself falling back to that so what for me I did because just coming home from outside place or car and you know just being a kid I kid being a kid doing the kitty stuff and you're running and you're doing all these things but then coming home to not find anything to eat was one of the hardest thing stepping into a room that was cold was an indication that nothing had been cooked and so as a child I started noticing that we can get this we can get this so what do we do what do we do so I like I said that he want to become a thief so I hit the street of Narobi which is a capital city of Kenya and I started begging for food and money so I became what we call in Kenya we call street boys a beggar basically but then I would beg and bring something home but just as you know begging is not a job so you're not guaranteed to get anything you can go the whole day nobody you might not find anything and I was at the age of eight but my begging and about begging will get something or bring it back home that means people back home are waiting for me to come from the street with something to eat or some money then they can eat an 80 year old boy so if I didn't find anything then what happens is that they would go to bed hungry because this 80 year old kid did not find anything to eat and so when that happened over and over I started noticing amen these guys are kind of disappointed they're not saying it they're not disappointed at me that's a point that there's nothing yet I had gone to the streets and so that's when I started being creative and I joined a group of young people that were actually stealing and they introduced me to eat as well as an easy thing hey we're just gonna go and get something and run away I mean after all we're Kenyans we can run and so we we started to go and when you see something valuable somebody with something valuable would snatch it and run with it and basically just run run like a Kenyan until you find your way out of that vicinity and then if it's something that you can go sell you go sell if it's money definitely take home now interesting my family didn't know how I was getting the money at some point I started being consistent with bringing money but they didn't know where the money was coming from and if my mom or my grandmother knew that we I was stealing they would not have taken the money even though they were sleeping hungry they would say I don't want your money wow so I didn't want them to know that because I knew they would have said no I feel like Jay I mean obviously you knew what you were doing was wrong but at the same time I find it very hard to judge you from falling into that because of your circumstances and right I don't know Tom Tom I've been just been interested in your input at this point because I mean Jay's story alone just tells us what an unfair world we live in you know that to that degree Jay was forced into this kind of lifestyle because of the circumstances most people and young children we know in our circles in the West would never have to necessarily make those difficult decisions and how just just before we return to Jay's story because that's obviously not the end of the story how do you deal with that just on a theological level when people say why is it fair really that this kind of thing exists in the world yeah I mean that it is hugely difficult and of course it isn't fair and I think we are cushioned against being aware of that kind of situation in the West the I've only been to Nairobi twice in my life in the first time which was many years ago like 40 years ago or so I remember being taken to the place I was staying which was right in the middle of Nairobi it was for a conference so we were in Nice to Tell and then somebody said to me just once go and walk I think it was like three streets from this nice downtown area which was very glitzy shops etc and then just come back again and you walk and before too long I don't know if it's still like this Jay now but before too long it was Chantitown it was and people very much begging on the streets and so on there were of course beggars in the in the more glitzy bits as well and and that was my awareness that actually all was not well that society was was deeply broken in a way and then I when I came back to the UK I started to notice similar things there are some cities in the UK where you have the nice bit and then the very very poor bit where its food banks and and crime and so on and when I was Bishop of Durham of course the north east of England is one of the most poverty stricken parts of the country where the Bifamal is where there'd be five children but only one could go to school at any one time because there was only one pair of shoes and so on so I've had a little bit of the first world version of what Jay is saying but in so many ways people like me have been cushioned against it and it's very good to be reminded that this is how a great deal of the world still is. I mean just before we come back to Jay's story for those who inevitably say why why does such a world like this is why why has God I mean I guess it is ultimately part of the brokenness part of the brokenness that we are called to be part of the solution to. Absolutely and and the Bible is full of promises of God putting things right and especially God doing justice for the orphan and the widow and so on and that hope of of God stepping in and doing something.

We're never told this is how it got there except the story right at the beginning of Genesis which really raises as many questions as it solves it just says this is where we are guys and but then there's always that promise God is going to put it right. Jay let's let's continue your story to pick up from where you were you'd fallen in with a kind of gang basically stealing just to make ends meet you will bring the money home for your parents and grandparents what what happened next. And before that term just to let you know that hasn't changed whatever you saw that hasn't changed it actually God and even worse and the difference is I live in America right now I live in Atlanta Georgia and there's still poverty where I have seen poverty here.

It's still poverty. The biggest difference is the choices the poor people here have versus the choices that poor people in Africa have we barely didn't have any any choice and to be honest with you and this is some of what we'll talk later on is it's it's not like people are extremely well there are people who are very extremely poor but there's also a group of who that are extremely wealthy. The biggest problem is the wealthy people want to keep it to themselves and the poor people just keep it to themselves and and so that's part of it and even some of the young people sometimes will steal their kind of mind.

I'm like how comes I don't even have anything to eat. Somebody can afford to drive this big car they have this big house they have all these things and and I know these things belong to them and they can do whatever they want to do but I'm like these people they just want to get more and more. There's no opportunity to even something to get down there and that's what happening even during this time when this election that's when we see that there who is who's coming out and know that and this is when they think the poor people matters a lot because man we need your vote but it will be falling in that in that in that group category of group led me to start stealing and and touching things.

Remember as I told you the danger of stealing in Kenya it doesn't matter how old you are most likely to end up in death my older brother I'm a second born of four my older brother had already started being a thief and he had his own gang and part of his gang some of them were being shot and killed one by one. He was one day stoned he was stoned in the streets of Narobi he was almost killed. The only thing that helped him was that cops passed by just before they brought a tire because that's the last thing when they're reaching you're down they put a tire that's the only way he's alive right now other is to are gonna kill him and burn him and so even with all those dangers I was like what else why do I'm gonna die anyway and so one day for me even before I went to far at this time was about nine years old so I went to steal and what happened is that I snatched something and then I was arrested being arrested was actually much better than the worst could have the other things was the worst because the cops arrested me instead of the mob justice because the mob justice is very angry with what has been happening and so I was arrested by the cops but this particular time that was arrested actually this will be interesting to you guys it wasn't like a normal arrest what happens is that at that particular time those are particular I can't remember but there's a a wild leader that was visiting Kenya so and let's say there's a leader from from the from the euro from euro or from the US those wild leaders that you want to show them hey Kenya we're doing well they usually go to the streets and and sweep so they have lots of cops so that particular time there are so many cops on the streets and that's how I even got arrested and so they try and clear the streets and take us to the to prison and so I was arrested and at the age of nine and honestly to me that was like the reality of life because I went to prison at this age of nine and you know starting to ask myself so many questions I mean I mean prison why is this happening to me why was I born in the family that I was born into you can imagine the kind of thoughts that were going through my mind like what did they even still in that first place but then why are we hungry and all that and basically I had so many questions that I would ask myself and I was at a questioning god if god exists you know Kenya and we'll talk about this more we know so much about God in Kenya and so you start having that conversation with with yourself through God and you're like man did you really exist and without saying too much that was probably my darkest moment in life just being in prison it was like my lowest of the lowest moment where I thought this was life because other children that I met there that was life and they've been doing that over and over again I thought to myself this is it for me probably this is gonna be what it's gonna be happening but then while I was there because one thing about Kenya is that we here preach as preaching all the time and you hear preaching all the streets of Nairobi and that's a good thing whenever I whether you go to church or not in Kenya you're gonna hear the word of God and I'm sure it's true in some of the eastern African countries the preachers in the streets they're preachers in the public transportation and so I don't know well my mom is speaking to a Catholic church my grandmother used to meet me to a Catholic church but I never stepped into a judge where they are actually like preaching to you like you know in a particular way but I had had so much about God and so what I did for me was right in prison I knelt down in a challenged God I asked God for two things one to take me out of prison but second to take me out of poverty I knew getting out of prison is very important but if I'm still poor chances of incoming back are high and so I was praying to go to get me out of prison and out of poverty and honestly I was praying out of any knowledge I didn't have any any knowledge it's just like these are the two things that I need so if there's a God somewhere this is what I wanted to do for me and even though it wasn't immediately it wasn't it was a lot of things that went back and forth but finally I was set free and I was the most happiest person and being from prison and then you're free that's like you feel very very different like I saw life in a new in a new life and I was in a new light and I was excited I was happy that you know what I think I get a chance to start all over again but then just when your excitement is not even fully you get back to your community you get back to your home which is still poor which is still nothing and then in your mind you're like okay I was excited but okay where else where am I gonna go what am I gonna do what am I options yeah what am I options and at that point I was like there's no way I I didn't want to go to the streets but then I wanted to go back to school and so I was in between there and so going back to school was not easy because like I said you have to pay your tuition fee and we didn't have that so at this point I had started living with my grandmother my mom had actually attempted suicide at some point because of poverty because of everything that was going on she thought it was good for her to to take her life and so she tried she attempted suicide but tango she didn't die but then she was not stable to stay with us at some at that point while I okay they had decided let's go and stay with my grandmother which for your information it always happens when children have children and something goes wrong they're all dumped at grandmother's or grandpa's house and so yes so we were dumped like my cousins and all of us were all in my grandmother's house like 10 to 15 children in one single room like a very tiny room it's actually we call it self-confused room because there's there's a lot of confusion in that room but then your my grandmother was like picking all of us and dumping us to school and we're like we don't have any tuition fees she's like let's go so she would she was like I don't care just go to school and they should go and dump us to school and we would uh would go there but sometimes they'll say go home sometimes they'll be like okay you can you can stick around but then one day what happens is that uh that's when compassion came around so one of those days that grandmother grandmother was dumping us to school compassion came around and when compassion came around they were looking for students who want to be in school but they're not able to afford so all the teachers knows who is poor of course almost everybody's poor all the teacher knows who is extremely poor because you know you have to put on your school uniform they can tell from your school uniform if it's torn if it's dirty uh we had to go home for lunch when you go home for lunch and come home and you kind of done you can tell somebody who has not had lunch and so they always among the the children that were selected and I joined the program and long story short that's how my life started taking a turn and started moving in a different direction yeah yeah I mean again you and I just listened sort of in slightly stunned disbelief and the reality this is the reality for so many young people around the world today Jay but we are Tom I'm sad to say somewhat insulated most of the time from from these realities uh in the west and that that's and it's so good to in the sense have that wake up call from someone like you Jay to say this is life for many people you know this is just the day to day reality um that exists um uh I mean Tom it kind of I I I went to Africa as a young person you know gap year I took gap year in and went to Uganda as telling Jay just before we started recording about it actually and I often think actually doing something like that would just help a lot of people to step outside of the kind of western comfort zone um and and just to kind of get a sense of actually know you're the way you live your life is not the way so many other people are actually living their life and and exactly what Jay said you know that divide between rich and poor um which yes does exist of course in various parts of it you know the west too but is so much more stark in a way um when when you're looking at somewhere like the slums of Nairobi um any thoughts just on Jay's story up to that point and uh and thank god for that rescue but also I would say this wouldn't I thank god for grandparents thank god for a grandmother who was prepared to say okay you're here and I'm just going to take you to school and that's it and there's a kind of a moral force to a matriarch as it were just saying these are kids they need school here they are and and there's a sort of um knock and it will be opened unto you about that right refusing to to take no for an answer ultimately but I mean what what I see from where I sit is as I said I've worked in the northeast of England where there is quite serious poverty in some in some housing estates where you know the police don't even go and uh often there's one church worker living on that estate and he or she knows what's going on and is doing what they can and the local council rely on the church sometimes to to say what's what's happening and to start you know youth employment possibilities and that sort of thing so we do have our own micro versions of this nothing though of the extent and the way that Jay described but I'm also struck by the way in which um that situation of the rich and poor side by side is of course what the global village is like and we in the so-called west I mean western Europe north America Australia the southern Africa etc southern Africa is different for various reasons but we have lived in that sort of bubble where we have been totally the the rich people driving by in the big cars and not very far away just the other side of the Mediterranean Sea there's all sorts of places whether it's Somalia whether it's Eritrea etc where we now know that there are people in terrible trouble who are now trying to come to the west because they see it as this is where you will be looked after where good things will happen to you and with America of course it's not very far away from Atlanta where Jay lives you don't have to go too far south before you enter both the Caribbean which some huge problems in some parts of the Caribbean and Central America where there are all sorts of social problems and the contrast between America and those places is just so acute and it's kind of that what Jay has described but on global scale so I mean I am constantly asking myself the question and what should we in the west be doing in terms of the larger system because where it falls out in the slums of Nairobi or in the slums of northeast England or anywhere else or in say Haiti or Nicaragua or wherever these are the fallout from a larger global inequity which we are just making worse by the wars and rumors of wars which are going on right now so these are huge problems and it seems to me that the danger is for the church simply to focus on let's save a few souls and who cares what happens to their bodies and of course happily now the church isn't doing that so much but we do need to have a new generation of people who will be passionate enough about the global inequities as well as the local inequities to say we need a different system and of course as soon as you say that people think oh you're a communist yeah we know about this story but but but just because communism is a discredited and clearly flawed and failed system that doesn't mean we can go back to unthinking capitalism with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer at the bottom and we need that new generation of people who will think wisely about economics about the global society and prayerfully because it's out of prayer that fresh wisdom will come and we boy do we need that i see it at my age and i hear it in in what j is saying there and i'm sure he knows it in atlanter yeah yeah i was going to say jay before we kind of hear a bit more about the way that compassion you know really changed your story you've mentioned already that kind of god belief is kind of a given almost in in Kenya in at east africa generally um and that has in a way you know in the the early 20th century sort of kind of pentecostal revival really across many parts of africa and east africa especially um so it's kind of like it's is part of the atmosphere there but it goes alongside obviously the it's really difficult economic circumstances and social circumstances going on what what do you see happening on the ground in terms of what the church is able to do in in Kenya and east africa because it's not it's a bit of a mixed bag as i understand it especially from having had previous conversations with tom with another compassion sponsor child who's now a pastor in yuganda um that that while the church is often doing great things there's also kind of there's been the influx of for instance prosperity preaching gospel and you can see why that would be so attractive to many people you know this idea that if i just you know give money to this pastor i'll get ten times back what's going on when you when you visit kenya today how what you seeing on the ground in terms of the way christians are responding so funny now that's a that's a very interesting thing because uh like we said kenya kenya in in itself is like 80 past more than 80 percent of people are considered uh with christians and if that's the case you'd expect when there's a need we are all coming together but one thing and the analysis more later on is that uh from my perspective and i'm actually gonna when you talk about church and and in the east africa i'm not talking from a theological point of view i'm talking from the streets so from the streets point of view what i've seen what i've observed because uh now not from the theological part of it so my observation is that i i think as much as we are Godfearing i think we lack one aspect which is giving we don't have the because you don't have to give so much we we are in this society whereby because of poverty and because of poverty because of lack of a lot of stuff when people have something small the one and grab it and keep it to themselves and that means the stronger ones are going to grab that the ones who are not strong they're not going to get anything and even though the church is there now i'm not going to discredit the church in africa because the church in africa is doing absolutely good things like there's so many things that the church in africa and doing by the same time the church in africa is also limited in resources there is what they can and cannot do you find them in some places the persons themselves are struggling the church is struggling so as much as they may want to do so much they're not able to do a lot but the symptom there is the few when you talk about prosperity gospel there is a few who have really ran with that prosperity gospel and it has really blindsided a lot of people and the worst part of that is just like you've mentioned just in is that there are people who believe for them to get wealthy they don't necessarily have to work whatever later money they have damp it to the pastor because the word of the pastor is going to sort everything out and that's the misconception that has really been called on for some time and it's killing the church in africa and some people who've been who've been taught i don't know if it's been brainwashed or worse but they may told hey whatever you have bring it here give it to the pastor and then go it's going to multiply because of such frustration there are people who are getting frustrated with the church because i mean i believed in the pastor the pastor told me to do this and i did but here i am i'm still poor so there's a lot of mixed bug when it comes to the church there people who are doing an absolutely an amazing job and they are selfless but those ones honestly are very few the majority are the ones who are trying to grab whatever leader of those poor people have that's a shame to hear that that's i mean i don't know tom whether you've got any thoughts on it's very difficult obviously to speak as an outsider westerner necessarily to a situation that you you don't have a lot of familiarity with but but any thoughts on on how we can help people you know the church to kind of do what we want it to do we know what the church should be doing in in that kind of part of the world i mean clearly there are networks of churches from my own point of view as as an Anglican i know that the Anglican church in Kenya has traditionally been very strong when i was teaching in Montreal we had one or two young Kenyan Anglicans training with us who then went back to Kenya i was thinking just listening to yeah i wonder if if some of them and how bishops or whatever i've lost lost touch with them but certainly when i was at the land of conference i was very much aware of of bishops from east Africa as as a kind of a powerhouse these are people who who know about prayer who know about ministering in in extraordinary circumstances and we in the west had a huge amount to learn from them as a kind of an integrity about that but i i'm not sufficiently o'fay with how things are right now to be able to say well these churches are doing it right all those ones aren't or whatever but i see that prosperity gospel and the danger of it it's almost like in our country we have the national lottery and when that happened people said this is going to be a tax on poverty because it's poor people who are going to be buying lottery tickets and then some lucky person lucky is going to end up with a million or millions or whatever and because those poor people have given their money and and in a sense what you're seeing with the prosperity gospel is something rather similar and the trust which is then placed in pastors is is really is really tragic and of course that's happened in america again and again and and of course the trouble is god does want to bless us god does want to do all sorts of things for us but at the heart of that vision in the bible again and again is justice it's not simply handouts and everyone frothing around and not really worrying it's it's about god putting things right in the society and for individuals as well um as and when but but it's not a magic formula and i think the church has often been seduced into thinking it can offer people magic formulae and as i read the gospels and as i look at the book of acts for instance or paul's um journeys and his wanderings um he has to face down the karenthians who want him to be a super success and he has to say no that's not what it's about it's about dying it's about being beaten up it's about being ignored or stoned or whatever and and that's what makes you a genuine apostle and there's the tension in the new testament which i think the church has always found a difficult to struggle with are we just going to coast along with an easy time or is it going to be all terrible and and it's neither of those things it's following jesus the crucified and risen one and somehow allowing that to work out anyway and this is fairly obvious well it's really lovely to be able to be bringing you this conversation between j and tom today and as you've heard and we'll hear more in a moment's time jes life was really transformed because of a compassion sponsor who stepped in to ensure he could receive education and care but there are so many more children today who are looking for sponsors who can give them the opportunity to step out of poverty and into a new and flourishing life it's amazing what god can do when we work together in partnership so we're delighted to be partnering with compassion usa on today's episode to make that happen and it's a critical time to be doing so the covid pandemic and international turmoil have intensified the pressure on families and communities where compassion works there are children desperately in need of help now if you've been touched by j story would you consider sponsoring a child today through the ask and to write anything show it's really simple to do firstly if you're in the usa you can just take out your phone right now and just text the word justin to 8 double 3 9 3 that's justin to 8 double 3 9 3 that'll start your journey to being matched with a child to sponsor or you can go on this website link from anywhere in the world it's compassion.com slash justin to start your sponsorship journey and that link is in the info with today's show and as a thank you to anybody sponsoring from the usa via text or that website link you'll be sent a copy of my book unbelievable why after 10 years of talking with atheists i'm still a christian we've seen such a generous response when we've done this before in fact over a hundred children sponsored through this show and maybe you've sponsored before but you're able to sponsor again perhaps this will be your first time either way i'd love to see that happen again 100 kids a whole village of children whose lives are changed because of ask and to write anything listeners so again to sponsor from the usa you can text the word justin to 8 double 3 9 3 or go online from anywhere in the world to compassion.com slash justin and the link is with today's show and to anybody sponsoring from the usa will send you that thank you gift my book unbelievable why after 10 years of talking with atheists i'm still a christian let's return to the conversation with j j just just tell us a bit about what happened when compassion stepped in and just the way that's then manifested in in as you grew and were able to i know start blessing kids in africa now through projects that you've been able to run since then what what happened when compassion came to be part of the picture well for me i think just like i began by saying the difference between poverty in uh in the west and poverty in africa is the opportunity in the chance so what compassion did is that it gave me that it gave me a chance in life and by simply being part of compassion uh one is that my parents didn't have to worry about tuition fee that means i could go to school any time any day and i would have my school uniform uh i remember after coming out of prison i actually had them i had malaria i came out of prison and i was so sick with malaria but the good thing about compassion is that they had a hospital and that hospital is dedicated to well to everybody to the community but if you are part of the program you get to go to this hospital and you can be treated for free so you see i started getting chances and opportunities in life going to school and having a chance you know what you can go to school and you can become somebody they started talking to us they started you know giving us this opportunity and for me one of the best thing that i got from uh from the program is uh really i narrowed them down to three there's so many but i the one star i can always remember it's one of them is education i was able to go to school and they take took care of that and you know that helped me a great deal you guys know how education is important the second thing that i i got is something that would self motivate me something that will keep me going even when there's nothing tangible and that was love it gets to be i get i got a sponsor who would communicate to me and told me how much a love me and how special i was even though we loved each other in our community in our family we never used to say each we love each other a lot but then when the moment started hearing that somebody loves you and really it's not just about saying they would even show but you know for you to be the program your status making sure that you're part of the program and they're keeping you there and so that was showing me love even from the the teachers that were with because the local the compassion worked with the local church and that church has teachers who are always with us they are always doing the hard work on the ground and they would show us how much they love us they showed how much they cared for us and how they want life to be better for us and so showing me love and telling me love was very important to me and of course and not the the last another lease is the first time that i had the word of God is when i was in when actually i received Christ in a program and so being that the third thing that i received from the program is to to know Jesus and to know God and when you become part of compassion program that is part of it it goes with it you're not forced but it's we're compassionate we rescue kids from poverty in Jesus name that goes with it and so you find students some of them who come from even a Muslim background or background where they don't care so much about God but they find a church and a community that is actually helping their children and they are telling them about Jesus they are like you know what go ahead and tell them about Jesus and so for me that was very special it was very important because you know when all is said and done when everything right now i don't have most of the stuff that we got from the program but i still have Jesus and to me that was one of the best thing that i received and that made me with the man that i am right now it has it's not easy life is not easy but as you journey through life and you have the word of God with you there's nothing good as that because whenever there's a challenge you go back to the scriptures and you hear God says that i have good plans for you and when you know that God has good plans for you that keeps you going the moment you hear the word of God anytime you're discouraged you get to hear the word of God that it's going to be all right and don't give up and so for me receiving the word of God was one of the most special thing that i did because even even after the program was over it could have been easy for me to to fall back but because i had a word of God that made me the man i am right now and i'm forever grateful for my sponsor for compassion and for everybody who was part of that well it's it's a lovely reminder of the fact that when how God can work through the church and obviously compassion is an organization that does as you say work through local churches to deliver its child sponsorship program it's been so good Jay i wish we had more time maybe to to talk through things but it's it's been really good to catch up with you on today's show and and yeah uh tom i'm sure you know there's many things more things that we could have said but but it's just good sometimes to be reminded of the way God is working in very different contexts and Jay i i don't come to America that often these days but i do hope that i'll be able to connect with you sometime in Atlanta or somewhere else and if you're coming to UK let me know and be good to say hi and share share some of it i've never been to UK i'm hoping to come back sometime i've loved being i've i always passed by going to Kenya but i'm hoping at some point i can't but i can just stop by a venue for a day or two well blessings on you and the work that you're doing we'll have a cup of tea or a cup of chive with you Jay one day that sounds good thank you god bless you thanks for being with us on today's show Jay thank you very much thank you so much again okay thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you again for watching today's show and just a final reminder if you can we'd love to see another village worth of children have their lives changed through this show's partnership with compassion let's see another 100 kids sponsored if you're in the US you can just text just into 8 33 93 or from anywhere in the world go to compassion.com forward slash Justin the link is with today's show and again anyone from the USA whose sponsors will receive a thank you gift my book unbelievable why after 10 years of talking with atheists i'm still a Christian thanks for being with us on the ask and to write anything show and we'll see you next time