Interview with Chance: Patriarchy and Incarnational Christianity

For The King — FTK

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Interview with Chance: Patriarchy and Incarnational Christianity

April 2, 2025

For The KingFTK

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Transcript

Hello, For The King listeners. I am not your host, Rocky Ramsey. My name is Will Drzymskiy, a brother in Christ and friend of Rocky's, whom he has generously invited onto the show in order to verbally showcase my artwork to you in 50 seconds.

As an artist, I strive to accurately reflect the glory of God and everything that I paint, and through that process I hope to flood as much of the earth as possible with paintings, which accurately proclaim the undeniable fact that Jesus is Lord, and the creation which he made commands us to worship him. So if you would like to join with me in distributing clean, refreshing artwork showcasing the creativity of the God who made us, I would be overjoyed to have your help. I run my own website called Reflected Works, where I showcase the artwork I've done in the past, sell original paintings and prints, and take requests for unique commissions.

Once again, that's ReflectedWorks.com, all one word, and I'm looking forward to helping you further the kingdom of God right now here on this earth by putting some of your free wall space to productive use. Thank you very much for your kind attention, and now enjoy the show. Friends, welcome to the boy the king podcast.

This is your host, Rocky Ramsey. And on this podcast we declare the edicts of the king, namely and chiefly that Yahweh reigns, so you better bend the knee. So welcome to, I know it's been a hot second, it'll probably be like a month and a half at this point, so I'm on that more month, month and a half, upload schedule, so you know, you're gonna be seeing these episodes a little bit less because I'm kind of busy with some other stuff, but regardless, you know, look for that kind of schedule now.

It'll definitely be less. So we are joined this episode with a newbie to the for the king podcast. He's never been on before, so we're gonna, you know, give him a warm welcome.

Chance, how you doing brother? Welcome on the pod. So Chance is somebody I've actually known for a long time, but haven't ever really been, you know, I've just kind of heard about you, you know, haven't had a whole chance to hang out. Like, you know, we kind of were on, you know, when you get through your to your story, you know, your background here, we were at the same church for a while, but kind of never had a chance to get super close.

But, you know, the more we've both grown, you've come into some theology that I, you know, have come into as well. And there's a lot of kindred spirit there. So let's just start there.

Can you go through your, you know, your background? Who are you? Tell us about like the church you grew up in and just kind of kind of bring us up to speed. And then we can then I have a couple specific questions for you. Yeah, sure.

Yeah, so I was born into a Christian family, which was a blessing. And one that was not just a nominal Christian family. So I had a lot of blessings that a lot of people just don't don't receive.

So I definitely want to kind of start off this explanation of this journey or, you know, whatever you want to call it. With just that preface that you know, I've had a very, very healthy bringing a very solid church that I was brought up in. And then yeah, it kind of just went from there.

So yeah, I attended the same church, pretty much my whole life. So I was born into a church here in Indy, on the south side, and grew up there. And I have a brother, and it's just the two of us and my parents and we, you know, my dad's been an elder at this church on and off for for my life.

And yeah, so I mean, it's I mean, I guess I can go into some of the more details if you wanted to know more about my opinions of just growing up with that. But it's just a typical non-denominational church that I would say like, especially nowadays, it's not necessarily your typical non-denominational church. It's the theology is more rigorously set forth.

And there is a more seriousness given to theology and right living, you know, as far as as far as they take it. Then just the typical non-denominational church that you would run into nowadays. So yeah, that was that was kind of my experience there.

And then around high school, our youth group leader was very instrumental to me. So he had me. Yeah, yeah, it was Ethan.

So yeah, he started me. He started me on books, really. So I had read growing up, but mainly just fiction, for fun, and then for school.

But Ethan kind of really instilled that love for reading in me. So he took me through some, like some of your basic books, like Desire and God by Piper and some of those books like that. But it really kind of started out the theological book life for me.

And that was kind of through some early high school, late middle school, early high school. And then once I graduated from high school, I went to a like a community college and didn't really ever get plugged into like a college life. So I lived at home.

My wife and I got married when we were 20. And so I didn't really have like the the traditional, you know, college life. So I did a bunch of reading, and I was already starting to figure out how to be a husband, and how to lead a family.

So that was really kind of I would say the pivotal point for me, of where my, my faith that was real, actually started taking roots. And it kind of hit me as like, you know, I have to really figure out why I believe what I believe and why I'm doing what I'm doing. And what's the reasoning behind some of these specific things like how to be a husband? And you know, how do we think about children? How do we think about the mission as a family? Those are the things I had never really thought about too deeply, I would say.

You know, a lot of my training growing up was just understanding theological terms, and kind of just that more head knowledge type experience, which, you know, which is important, you know, you can't have the practical living without the proper head knowledge too. So you need to have those. But yeah, so I would say it was probably about that time that I started reading a lot of dead guys, and a lot of a few guys that are alive today that mainly base all of their writings off of dead guys.

And that was really where it changed for me. It wasn't so much more of this, you know, relation with Jesus type reading. It was more of, you know, how to be a man, how to be a father, how to think about the political world, if we should think about culture, you know, kind of that, that type of realm.

And then, you know, from there we had children. So my oldest daughter is almost three. And, you know, just before my life was pregnant with her, so, you know, about four, plus four to five years ago was when I really started taking this stuff seriously.

So yeah, a lot of the theology that we've talked about, a lot of the ideas politically and culturally that we've talked about together, that was really where that was kind of stemming from. So yeah, that section of the journey has probably been about five to six years of kind of more serious reading and not thinking about these things. And then, yeah, so, and I guess I'll mention, we did switch churches as well.

So we started attending a small church in Franklin, Indiana, called Franklin City Church. And that's where we are members of now. And we left, I think it was, it was right after COVID.

So it was probably 20, I think it was 2021, maybe, was when we switched. So I think we're going on almost four years now at this church. So that was, you know, we can, we can talk about that too, if you wanted to.

I don't want to dive too deep into stuff, but yeah, that's kind of just the general trajectory, always been a Christian and always thought of myself as a Christian. And then probably within the last five to six years, I started taking that really seriously on really practical stuff too, and not just, you know, debating theological terms. So yeah.

Okay. Well, that there's a, oh yeah, there's a ton that I work with. So I got two things I want to note first about your story that I think is important to consider.

And then I have a, I want to, I have a question after that, but you can, you know, feel free to interact with these two points first. So the two things that really stuck out to me that I think are really, really important from your, you know, the, your story arc, I guess. Ethan Drent instilling in you a desire to read.

And if you get your hands on the right stuff, if you become a reader and you value reading and you get your hands on your rights, on the right stuff, it can completely, God can use that in a massive, massive way. So I just want to note the importance of reading. I talk about that a lot on the podcast.

Like I do my, I have like a reading list I do at the end of each year of the best stuff I read. I love that list. There's a reason why I do that.

Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

There's a reason why I do that. And there's a reason why that was so impactful in your life. So, okay.

Let's, let's just camp out there for a real quick second. Do you have anything you want to say about reading and like why that's important or, you know, anything about that? Yeah. For sure.

Yeah. I mean, it's really hard to figure out exactly what I want to say in this, because I think reading is probably one of the most instrumental tools that God uses to shape a man's life. And that was just, and again, like I don't, I don't want anything from my past to have like a negative overtone.

That's not how I feel, but I definitely am in a different spot than a lot of my friends that I grew up with. And so yeah, I just want to kind of clear that up first, but the reading so much was not really presented as a tool for cultural engagement or for practical kind of enhancement. I don't even know, I guess the right word to use, but it was more just, you know, let's learn more about, you know, different theological terms.

And it was kind of like just getting a seminary degree, you know, that was kind of what it felt like the training was, was just training to just get a theological seminary and get a degree and then go from there. But yeah, Ethan, Ethan, and I would say this is also important too. So not only did he put books in front of me, but he brought me along with a lot of stuff that he was doing.

So I just also, it was just pure discipleship. So it was putting good books in front of me and then living life, having me live his life basically for a couple of years. And then I'll also mention Rick Cramer as well.

Yeah. Which, did you ever meet with him? Yeah, his morning. Yeah, his Saturday morning stuff.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. I could remember who, who all was in that group over, over the years, but yeah, he was also instrumental. We met weekly and he was a lot more focused on some of the practical stuff.

So even though he and I would disagree on stuff now with some theological differences, but he was also instrumental of just showing me that, you know, Christians who mean it live it. Yeah. And that there can be a difference scene with that.

So those two things are really important. And definitely an emphasis on the right books, like you said. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's thrown out today that is really popular.

That really is just garbage. Straight up garbage. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's, it makes you feel good. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, it makes you feel good. It makes you feel like really close to Jesus and, you know, that's where it leaves you.

So you're kind of just left in this ethereal, spiritual Christianity that leaves you weak and, you know, doesn't, you know, expand through generations. And that's, and that's kind of the fruit we're seeing now. So yeah, I mean, I would say that's definitely important for sure.

Yeah. I think a lot of masculine men that, you know, are Christians, but they're not readers. They think, they think in the reason why is because they think, you know, reading is kind of a feminine, it's kind of gay, but to your point, if you read the right books, if you read old dead guys that actually teach you how to be a man and how to be a Christian that is legit and is going to go fight against evil, then those books are not effeminate.

So it's so, you're not going to read like love does or whatever by Bob Goff or whatever that, you know, right? All these, there's a bunch of big Eva, very, very effeminate books that just keep it pie in the sky. Like you're saying, that's all it does. It's just pie in the sky, ethereal.

And if you really want, like Ethan was teaching you how to be a man in the midst of reading theological books that are practical. Yeah. So yeah.

And I would even say too, you know, not reading books makes you gay, you know? So that's kind of, you know, it's, it seems to be the opposite of how people think, but you know, it really does, it really does shape you. And I've been in conversations with some guys, you know, my age and older and, you know, the something I've been hearing more often is, you know, this argument of do the reading and how that really just offends a lot of people. And, you know, that, that kind of turns into, oh, you know, you can't tell me how to live my life.

And, you know, if you're presenting an argument and I haven't done the reading, that doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion. And, you know, all this stuff that really is, you know, we're just seeing a real lack of, of knowledge and understanding on some of these topics. And then when you try to address it, you know, somebody hasn't done the reading because everybody argues from emotionalism today.

I would say that's also one of the benefits of reading is it just pulls you out of this emotional lifestyle. You know, it prevents you from arguing from emotions. You have to argue from reason and logic.

And that's just, that's just not something we do today. So you're right. That's huge.

Yeah, that's good brother. Okay. So let's, let's then pivot now.

The second thing from your, your story that I wanted to bring up is the gateway drug to high church, you know, conservative, historic Christianity is Patriot. Okay. So you said, I got married.

I wanted to know how to be a good father. I wanted to know how to be a good husband. And then you got into this theological historic train of patriarchy.

Okay. So can you just describe that? I've talked about it on the podcast before, but I want to hear from you. How, how did that, how did you get into that? And how did that pull you into all these other topics of like politics and all the other stuff, cultural, the stuff you were talking about? Yeah, that's, that's kind of a hard question to answer because for me, you know, and I don't know if this would be, you know, I know you were a Christian for a bit before kind of diving into some of this stuff, the same with your brother.

But I would be interested in asking Bryce to this question because it seemed, I don't know if there was like a legit pinpoint that I could go back to. It just, so when we got married, I realized I was inept to be able to function as a head of the house appropriately. And to the degree that I think God held us to, and not necessarily because of any deficiencies, you know, in me, obviously I'm, you know, the biggest center.

But just because I had never considered some of these things, and that's not something that is normally taught, you know, in church today is how to be a good father and how to be a good, you know, how to be a good wife. You know, the the message that my wife and I received growing up a lot through college was don't get married, you know, wait, wait, you know, experience the college life, like wait to get married until you've figured some more things out. And again, that just turned out to be garbage.

But that that's the kind of advice that is given today. And so men who decide to actually not go off and, you know, party for five years, or, you know, try to go find something else. And, you know, even if you do go to college and get married afterwards, like, we are just not equipped to do this, right.

And so I think I think I've just always had this more mindset of wanting to know why I'm doing what I'm doing, either if that's with, you know, fixing a car or learning a subject, you know, I don't just want to know the material, I want to really know it, you know, deep down. And so I think that kind of transferred over into marriage. So once that hit, I was like, shoot, I really, I don't know what I'm doing.

Like, how am I supposed to lead her? If I'm supposed to wash her with, you know, the word, what does that mean? You know, how do I live this? If I'm supposed to represent Christ, what does that, you know, what does that look like? And so just that was kind of the, the stirrings in me, I guess, that kind of got me down this. And then I would say to I don't know if you agree with this, but Doug Wilson was definitely probably like the gateway writer for me, I would say. So I came across his blog, and I think I think it might have even been Eric Khan, too.

This is this is where I would ask Bryce, because we kind of did this about the same time. So I remember coming across the Hardman podcast, which is Eric Khan's podcast. Because, you know, about that time, I was just listening to podcasts.

And it was mainly, you know, I was listening to Piper's podcast, and some of the like Albert Mohler and some of that stuff. And yeah, daily briefing. Yeah, yeah, right.

Yeah, I was I was really learning to love podcasts. And so I just started searching and came across Eric Khan's and listened to it. And I was like, Holy smokes, this is another level.

Yeah, this is this. Yeah, this is what I've been looking for. Yeah.

And that was the same time, I think I came across blog and may blog as well. And this was kind of before like canon plus got big or canon really got big. So he was kind of mainly just doing like his blog and then some podcasts and his books.

So I remember I started reading his blog and just digesting all of it just basically just tricky from the fire. I was trying to really kind of grasp everything that he talks about. And he really dug is a great example of hitting on theological terms, and then also kind of all over the board.

So he really does apply to being a husband, being a wife, being a parent, being a man. And, you know, and then Christ likeness in other realms, too. So I would say he probably was kind of the gateway writer for me.

And that probably, I was probably reading and listening to his stuff pretty heavily for two to three years, probably the last two or so years for me, I haven't read as much of him, but I still do. But it kind of shifted on to a lot more further guys, and people who aren't alive anymore. But I think that was really, I think that really is what God is using him for, because he he references so in so many books that, you know, this is not new material for him.

He's just, you know, kind of meshing around all the stuff he grew up on, which is all the same guys that I'm reading now, you know, all the all the old dead guys. And so he kind of is that gateway really, for a lot of men I've been finding, because he he talked about what it meant to be a husband and practically like what like does that look like? What does it feel like? And same thing for a father. So like, yeah, I would say another pivotal point for me was when we, when my wife became pregnant with our, with our daughter was like, man, I got, I got to figure this out, you know, I got to figure out how I'm supposed to think of her, like, how am I supposed to, yeah, you know, relate to her.

And that, you know, that can even go into some, you know, theological differences, too, that kind of changed around that time. Yeah. But yeah, I would say I don't know if that answers your question very well, but yeah, that was kind of the gateway for me.

Yeah, no, I it's the exact same thing for me. And I loved your point about how God is using Doug to basically get all these men into this camp. And then maybe the camp gets a little larger afterwards.

And Doug thinks he's losing control of some of these, you know, that he that he brought in, you know, whatever, you know, who cares about that? Just I'm just thankful to be here. You know, like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I'm just thankful I'm here. And Doug is Doug was an instrument that God used.

Oh, yeah. So yeah, 100%. And he has written so many stinking books, which is just great.

It's just as you know, there's so much material there. So yeah, he's a hard worker, the Lord and Susan him. Yeah, big time.

He's got a great work ethic. Yep. Okay, so tell me if you'd agree with this statement, because I want to hone in on patriarchy real quick, and just how important that is, because you were just detailing, like, just how important that is for a man to grasp, I would rather like a like a slight, like a pre-milled disc be dude, that it believes in patriarchy.

And a post-milled like the anomic or whatever, right, like a dude that me and you might theologically align with more. But the wife runs the home. Like, I've just noticed the men like patriarchy is that important, I think, I think it is kind of what makes or breaks a Christian man's engagement.

As a Christian, his effectiveness with the kingdom is, is he a patriarch or not? And I'm just curious, like, that's kind of how I assess it in terms of how important that doctrine is. Would you agree with that statement? Like, I'd rather have a pre-milled disc be that understands patriarchy than a like, like a post-milled dude, that is a feminine, right? And kind of runs the show. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I would, I would have to say I agree.

I guess I haven't really even thought about that, you know, dichotomy too much. But I, something I have kind of began to lean towards is I think the practical stuff holds a lot more importance than we put to it. You know, obviously in our bigita age, but, you know, I really do think it, I'm not going to say it's more important, because, you know, the heart is where God judges, and that's what he's after.

Yeah. But I think you can have a pre-milled disc be theology and, you know, be 100% right with God. And then if you're also living as a patriarch, you're, you know, outpacing the post-milled guys who are gay.

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I would, I would 100% agree with that. There's actually, I've jumped with this sometimes on some episodes that we've done on our podcast, but this is kind of like a running joke for me and the guys at frequent city is our pastor.

And then, Brandon, when, you know, he's, he's one of the guys, one of my buddies here, and we have some different opinions on some theological terms. And I actually think that makes it more fun. Yeah.

But, you know, our joke is like, I don't really care what you actually believe, as long as you act like a post-milled, like, as long as you act like, you know, it's like, as long as you live that way. So like, if you're, if you're living like a patriarch, and I would disagree with you on eschatology, or on some of these other things, like, I, I really don't care. Like, let's, like, we're on the same mission.

And I think that's kind of which I, I actually would agree with. That's, that's a really good point. And I'm thinking about it.

But more along the lines, when I've explained to the people of mission, and if we're on the same mission, if we're going the same place, I really don't care if you're a Baptist or Presbyterian or pre-milled or post-milled, like, I really don't care. Like, those are just the fun arguments we can have around the fire, you know. Exactly.

And, which is, which is why I love kind of the brotherhood of where I'm at now, is, you know, we can have some of these fun discussions on theological terms. And we have no questions on how patriarchy looks, and, you know, how the man is supposed to leave the home. And we're all going places with that.

And I would say, I would say that's more important. And I also think it's, it is harder to get men to wake up to the practical stuff than it is to teach them some theological terms. So it seems to be the problem of our day, that men are lazy, and women rule.

And, you know, getting that to switch is the really difficult thing to do in the culture, you know, convincing somebody of a post-moment's ketology is, you know, it can be difficult in our day and age, but that doesn't really, you know, that's not on the same level, I would say. So, yeah. Yeah, I would agree.

Yeah. Yeah. Patriarchy, man.

That's just, just for all of you listening, like, I think Chance and I are in agreement here. Like, that doctrine, your anthropology there, understanding that, like, the man is to rule, and the woman submits, you know, and like, not even a little bit ashamed of using biblical language. Like, there's no part of me that thinks that there's anything wrong with that setup.

Like, the woman submits what the man says goes, you know, you lead. That's really important. And the reason that's good is because of the way, that's the way God made creation.

Yeah, exactly. And which is, which is why I think that's a good point you made is, patriarchy might really be more father rule, might really just be one of the center points. Because if that is missed, generations are impacted from that.

Yeah. You know, like, my son can grow up to be a pre-mill and still carry on the same mission that I'm trying to set forth right now. And God bless our generations.

But if he misses the mark on, you know, letting his wife from the house, then that is going to have the generational impact. So yeah, that's, that's a good point. That's a good point.

Okay, let's now, okay, I think those are some good, like, you know, things that tap into your story. I want to now let's spend the next, you know, 10, 15, 20 minutes or so, and we can get like, a little bit more dicey. So how about you? Since you grew up, which is totally different story than I, you know, I grew up a pagan, you grew up in this big Eva kind of environment, and life point was one of the more solid kind of mega churches in the Indianapolis area, they were pretty solid.

Yeah, for all purposes. Yeah, for as far as mega churches go, you know, pretty solid. So I would I want you to, as you came out of that, just critique some big ticket items that you think we've kind of already danced around a little bit with patriarchy, but if there's anything else you want to add to like, critiquing modern Christendom in the West, and then I'm just gonna give you the mic and just kind of run with what are some of the things that need to be recovered? What have you been recovering in terms of like your political theology? And well, you know, maybe what you believe about nations or what you believe about? You know, what are some of the what are some of the pet sins that our society has that nobody's willing to call out, you know, but so so just just however you want to rattle down.

And that's, that's a big question. The big one. But yeah, just go with it.

Whatever you want to say, whatever you think we're saying here. But I'm curious. I'm curious what you'd say 15 minutes.

Because whatever, whatever. Yeah, so I guess kind of going off, going off your last point, I would say eschatology is still very important. Yeah.

Because I really do think it impacts the way we the way we live. So the majority of the church, even if they are not, they would not follow the dispute camp, a lot of them would just be all male. But it's basically just functional dispensationalism, without the theological terms.

And I think this is really kind of just it's really kind of a cancer is what I would say. And so we have just grown apathetic to the physical world. I think that's probably our biggest sin, which, you know, can go off into a bunch of different rabbit trails on, you know, what you think about nations and what you think about your own people.

And, you know, that kind of off stems from just an apathy from the physical world. And, you know, God made the physical world, and he tied the spiritual with it. And we have done our best to separate it.

So, you know, this goes into like, you know, Baptist first Presbyterian theology, this is something that I switched on a few years ago, just trying to merge these two back together. So yeah, I would say that that is probably what I wish a lot of people would wake up to, is to start caring about the world that we live in now, and to start caring about the generations after them, in a very practical way. So, you know, I grew up and I remember just, I don't know, I don't know how explicitly it was stated, but just that politics is bad.

And it was just that mindset. So, you know, I just thought like, oh, the politicians are all evil, which, you know, actually they are. But you know, just, you know, just politics are, politics are bad, Christians should not care, you know, the slogan is, you know, this world is not our home.

And which has just been twisted in the, pilgrims. Yes, it's so bad. It's so bad.

And so, which actually I would say led to secularism, which is just a facade for just outright paganism, which is what we're seeing today. But we, the church has really sold on this idea of the neutral public square and where Christians could coexist with other religions peacefully, as long as you just stayed in your own corner, which now we're seeing is, you know, not complete, it's ridiculous. So that has been something that I have been really trying to bring back in my family, in our church, and in our community is we need to wake up and we need to start caring about what's going on around us.

So which goes to patriarchy, you know, care about the way you love your wife, care about politics, care about local politics, and really try to see secularism as an evil. And I think, and this is something that McKin and I, my wife have talked a lot about is just with some friends that we have in conversations we have is they seem to just want to go back to, you know, the 1990s, and just the secularism that was easy. And one of my favorite Doug, yeah, right, you know, one of my favorite Doug quotes is that, you know, most Christians today were in this movie, and are at the end of it, and it stinks.

And what we want to do is just rewind it to the beginning and play it again. Yeah, you know, and it's great. Yeah, we're just gonna wind up here in the same spot.

Yeah. So yeah, that that would be, it's hard not to go too practical of this, you know, in the short time, just in a big general thing. But yeah, that has been something on my heart is just caring about the people around you, caring about politics, caring about generational impacts, which, you know, goes into high church, you know, so if you're going to try to build a legacy, you know, church can't be just this Bible study or this seminary class where you show up and learn some facts about God and sing some songs just to, you know, move on to the next thing, you know, which should, you know, just kind of transfer into all of our life.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just want to go down a bunch of rabbit trails, but I don't want to, you know, take things too far. So yeah, was there something specific on that that you want to tie on? Yeah, you threw out a lot of really good stuff there.

I mean, I think you hit a really important point about the, you know, the hatred of basically what I was hearing you say is that a lot of modern Christians, when you were saying they don't care about the world, they don't care about the physicalness of the world, right? Yeah. For like the modern kind of big Eva person, they're going to say, well, I do care about the world, I go and share the gospel with people, right? But they'll say I share the gospel and that's true. Like the gospel is the center of Christianity, right? It's like, but it's that gospel centeredness that is actually just like over-spiritualizes everything.

And they think that when they say they go out and share the gospel, what they mean is like a Hebrews 4, when it talks about the milk of the faith, like repentance from dead works unto salvation and all that, right? So they're just talking about milk all the time. And what me and you were trying to talk about is, okay, yeah, you drank some milk, we have some Christians now, let's go make them Navy seals. Let's go get them on some meat and let's actually start caring about the world.

Is that kind of accurate what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, for sure.

You know, the gospel center of it is another thing. There's just so many things we could talk about, but you know, that's really another cancer as well, because what that means is we would just like all the other religions to like us. And, you know, we want to try to make the gospel as palatable then so that they might come to church and hear the gospel, instead of realizing that, you know, they worship a legitimate being that Christ conquered on the cross.

And our goal is to make the world Christianized. Yeah. And so, you know, when you realize that God wants, you know, I guess another thing too, that I would say we are lacking in is an understanding properly of the kingdom of God and how it is here right now.

And this, you know, this spiritual thing we're supposed to be waiting on here, which is kind of that whole piety movement. As you know, I'm just going to sit around and I'm going to, you know, try to live a holy life inwardly. And I'm going to try to not, you know, take off the pagan religions around me.

You know, I just want to be a nice guy. And then I'm going to go to heaven and I'm going to be in heaven and God's kingdom there. And the way Christ talks about it is his kingdom is here right now.

And he's king right now. And we need to be making the other nations Christian. So, you know, that goes into like, you know, the theology on nationalism that I think most people have fallen into, you know, we're a globalist society.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, nationalism is a good thing.

And yeah, I mean, I just, I just feel like I'm actually making these worse by bringing in more topics, but there's just a lot of practical things that I think the church has just left out because it doesn't fit in the gospel center movement. You know, you can, you can share the gospel with somebody and, you know, have an anti-nationalist view and, you know, hate your generations and still share the gospel with the same information, you know. And so, but if we realize that just sharing the gospel with somebody is not the point, you know, it's making disciples and making disciples of nations.

Exactly. Then you, then you have a lot of practical stuff that pulls into it, which is going to offend a lot of people. So yeah.

And that's huge. You're making a, you're making a very provocative point that in Matthew 28, when Christ gives the great commission, they're not implicit, but explicitly in the great commission is a, a, a position on the nations and nationalism. It's right there.

You know, he, he recognizes the legitimacy and the reality of nationhood right there, right. Right. And the great commission and which is kind of where we kind of get like, okay, this go share the good news, right? Go share the gospel.

Well, it seems like what Christ is implying there is that well, preserving the nations and, um, a national heritage and people, the tongues is good when you're sharing the gospel. So, I mean, that's just a very provocative point that people are not going to want to connect the dot on. I don't know if you have anything, uh, you want to, you want to go off of that, but, um, yeah, I've never considered that, but sure.

Yeah. Um, I mean, you know, globalism, you know, one of those terms, my, you know, is kind of thrown around as a joke is just the global homo movement. Yeah.

Um, which is really, which is really what it is, is, uh, you know, Christians have really been sucked into this thing that, um, you know, the Christians over here and the West need to be, you know, you know, just basically like sugar daddies to the rest of the world, um, which is really just, you know, really, really poor understanding of how things work. But, you know, even, even on a day, you know, you're not really worried about the spiritual transformation of somebody's heart. And then, and then once that has happened, you know, then we're good.

And, you know, which is, which is the found, which is the foundational, uh, step, you know, like we, we need to have heart change, you know, you, and that's what a lot of the, uh, the anti-Christian nationalists and all these, you know, hot topic terms that are thrown around today. Um, you know, that's their big push at this, like, Oh, this is just a, this is just a physical thing. You know, this is just a political thing.

And you're not really wanting the heart change. Yeah, I hate that. But it's yeah, it's it's just a strong man.

It's yeah. But you know, my goal is for my family to have strong heart love for Jesus and the fact carries out into the city of Franklin. So it matters the way you know, we go on the street and we, you know, to test things that are, you know, happening or you know, we want to get involved in the city, you know, which, which can look like humanitarian active, you know, activities, which is there's nothing wrong with that.

Those are things the church should be doing. Yeah, that's the one of the one of the greatest things that christened brought to us was, you know, hospitals and all of these great things that we have now because of Christianity, but that was coming from a people that understood that the kingdom of God is now. And the things we do now is what Christ is caring about, you know, and not just our spirituality on, you know, maybe I'm less prideful than I was two years ago, which is important.

But you know, if you're just going to stop there, you're not going to do anything. And then the pagans are going to win your kids because they're the ones fighting for them. Exactly.

Yeah, man. So yeah, I mean, it's kind of, I'm sorry, I'm kind of being like a little bit of a fire hose, but this is, this is kind of where, you know, a lot of my passion has went from, you know, really just, it's really just a full embodied Christianity is what I'm in love with. I know.

And you know, most of Big Eva is just not it, you know, they're, they're happy with the spiritual side of it. But you know, they don't want to really take it too much in the physical realm, because you're going to make people mad, and you're going to turn people off, and then they might not be able to hear the gospel, you know, from you at another time. And that's kind of really where we've been suckered into.

Yeah. So yeah, no, I mean, yeah, those are good. Yeah, that's, that's huge.

And I think when you have that love for place and people and your people, your own children, you recognize that like an element of living as a Christian and propagating the covenant, right? Keeping the passing on the covenant and the gospel of peace is like through your children, and it's through your people. It's not just like, because, because the, you know, these, the what we're critiquing is always going to come back and over spiritualize it and say, well, you're not a cross cultural missionary. So you're not really like a legit Christian.

And you're not going like, you're not going and like sharing the gospel to some rando in another country that wants to cut your head off. And you got to put your life on the line every time you say the gospel. And it's like, the normal way the gospel has moved all throughout history is adjacently to your children.

Not, I have to go clear all the way across the world to make converts, right? So they're just always going to spiritualize it and downplay all the stuff you're saying that's like very practical, very easily accessible, which is the way God has made us to be. And we're, the gospel is supposed to affect those things that are just natural to us and that we're going to be like, we're going to be in as people. So, I mean, I'm sure you agree with that, but that's just me like riffing on what you're saying.

I don't know if you have any way you want to expand on that, but that was mind changing for me to realize, wait a second, I am sharing the gospel and expanding the kingdom of God by just having children and loving my kids. Because I've known, here, one other point real quick, I've known men that are patriarchal and, you know, they're reformed and all that, but they're going out and street preaching so much that their family is like very obviously suffering. So the big, you know, the big Eva people are going to say, well, no, look at this guy, you know, he's on fire for the Lord.

He's going out and street preaching like, you know, he's doing a good thing. And I look at that and I say, but you've neglected your first, which should have been like one of your chief loves, you know, order, the order of Morris, right? Like having a right and ordered love. So they love these rando lost people, which we should love, but they're loving them more than their own family.

It's like, make sure your family's solid first before you go out and street preach. So that's just kind of what I'm getting at here. And yeah, yeah.

So what do you, what do you think about any of that stand out? Yeah, no, I, yeah, I really do. I really do agree with that. And you know, I, you know, that there, there's theology that really does tie to that.

And, you know, I do think our theology matters. But I would say too, just that, you know, how you're talking about how God works through generations is something that I've determined I've used when trying to talk with some people in my life is that I think Christ moves through culture. And I think that's probably the, the, the most effective way that his kingdom is brought on earth today is by culture.

Amen. Yeah. And, you know, and I don't, and I would then starkly disagree with the global culture, which is what we're really trying to move to, you know, really trying to move towards in replacement for just, you know, the place that God put you.

And, you know, that order more is like, just from JD Vance, just ripped that out in the interview, you know, a few months ago, just lit up, you know, people had no idea how to respond to it. Yeah. And I think that just shows kind of the, the malnourishment that we have of theology applied.

You know, we have we had the theology, but then, you know, when you don't apply it, you either look like the, you know, the huge big Eva mega church, you know, conference type church, or you have, you know, then you go over to the pagans who are actually doing something with their lives, you know, they're actually trying to make culture like they actually understand it better than the Christians do. Yeah. Which is why they're the ones out on the streets, which is why they're the ones trying to infiltrate politics.

Yeah. Which is the ones, you know, they're trying to, you know, get all social media, all of Hollywood. I mean, they understand that effective change is made through culture.

And they were playing the long game. Like, well, you know, while Christians were waiting around for Christ to come back, you know, because, you know, in 1988, you know, the 88 reasons Christ is coming back in 1988, and those books like that, and, you know, Christians were just sucking around waiting for that. And, you know, the pagans were playing the long game, and now we're seeing the fruit of that.

So I think that the counteract for Christians is not to say, like, we need to do everything the same way the pagans did. Obviously, that's wrong. But to realize the fundamental change is that God works through generations, and God works through culture, which is one of the reasons I think that the pagans are so after our children, they either want to murder them before they are born, or if they're born, they want to, you know, mutilate them then.

And that's why they're taking over the public schools is because they actually understand that generational impact is important. Like you have to you have to win the generation. But the problem is is that they have their their demons.

So you, you know, they either win them to their side, or they completely mutilate them. But Christians are over here, you know, a lot in, like I would say this kind of those tie into politics, not politics, but theology. And, you know, we just have a view of a spiritual kingdom.

And that's the only kingdom there is, which is gonna, you know, unless you really try to fight against your own theology, you're going to be dealing with, you know, a lack of physical understanding of what the kingdom really is, which is going to make you lame and politics and life and your marriage and your parenting. And, you know, I don't have anything I don't have it all figured out. You know, I still have, you know, I'm still learning from older men, but the realization is there.

And I think that's what needs to happen for a lot of Christians is, you know, the way Christ is working is through culture. And so you need to get a little, you need to get on board, really. Oh, yeah.

So man, that's good. I've never, I've never considered that. I mean, that's, that's entirely right.

Because culture, you know, we've learned about the etymology of that term from like Eric Kahn, he talks about culture and culture, you know, it's Christ does like culture is religion externalized. So like, of course, Christ is going to fight with culture because he binds us to his religion, which is, you know, following him, obeying him, you know, so that's just such an insightful point. I mean, I appreciate you bringing that up.

Like I, if there's one takeaway from the podcast, I would want everybody to walk away with exactly what Chance just said that you have to get on board with the culture that Christ is producing through his word and your life and make that accord, make that harmonize. And if that's not there, then you're going to get left behind and you're going to get your children snatched away from you because you don't have a culture to fight with. You have to have Christians really needs.

Sorry, go ahead. No, no, that was it. Go ahead.

Yeah. And I think Christians need to understand that a nice culture doesn't work. And so I, you know, we really have this, you know, fear of being disliked from the pagans.

And Christ did not have that fear. And, you know, the prophets did not. And, you know, even Christendom 1.0 did not have that either.

And so, you know, I think we, I think we need to realize too that Christ works through culture and different cultures are good. You know, it's not that inherently any or better than the other, it just depends on, you know, the gospel really does have legitimate effect in culture, which over generations is going to have legitimate effect on people. And for Christians to be, you know, the kind the kind thing is to care about the pagans and to say, we want you to repent and to, to join Christ.

Like that is the kind thing. And so often we fall for niceness of, you know, we want them to be comfortable around us, which, you know, demons are not going to be comfortable around Christ. So why would we expect the same in culture? So yeah, I mean, just, I would say those are kind of the important things that I've been working through is just how to figure out what a Christian culture is and how to practically live that out and then how to do that lovingly to the world law, understanding that they're not going to want anything to do with it.

Yeah. So yeah, I think that that is the, that's the question of the hour for sure. Well, I guess, you know, we've already been, we're coming up here in like 50 minutes so we can, let's wrap it up.

I guess last question that I'll let you run with. What do you anticipate, you know, as we apply these things and start doing these things, how do you anticipate Christendom looking in the next 10, 10 years or maybe at the end of the Trump presidency administration, you know? Yeah. What's, what's your kind of, or do you think we're going to, we're going to keep this momentum going of Christian nationalism, you know, Pete Hexeth is in the, you know, he's the secretary.

Like, are we going to keep this momentum going or do you think that this is a brief reprieve and then we're back to the races on paganism, you know, what do you think? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. And I would also say too, it's, it's hard to, you know, it's hard to kind of talk about that in your mid 20s because, you know, I've never, you know, I'm not been around enough to never really understand it, but at least from, you know, which is, goes back to reading. If you read enough, you can, you can kind of begin to think like the guys that you read, which, which really helps when you look at that the world around you, something that Stephen Wolf has said too, is he, you know, he does not care if the term Christian nationalism sticks, you know, he just wants the fundamentals to stick.

Like he wants the ideas to stick. Yeah. And I, I just from, you know, being on, being on X and just from conversations and people.

And I think COVID was big in this and it seems like people have really woken up to, you know, not the gay woke. People have really kind of realized just the amount of control that was pressed on us, which is why I think Trump won, you know, it was an overwhelming victory. And just the way that he's been acting is totally different than in 2016.

So I don't really see, and what also is just hilarious is the left is keeping the same playbook. Like they're, you know, they're, you know, they're not really shifting too much. You know, you had like Gavin Newsom, do some, do some recent with Charlie space his name.

But he's the guy that went around on college campuses. Charlie Kurt. Yes.

Yeah. But Gavin Newsom had an interview with him and, you know, Charlie just tore him to shreds. But I think like some of them are kind of seeing like, Oh, like the way we're doing it has been, you know, like we've been seen, you know, we've been caught, but it seems like most of them are not realizing that and they're keeping the same play.

And I mean, I, I don't know, this might be something from my postmill hope, but I, I really do think we've had enough momentum where it's not just going to go back to where it was. I think we have a lot of ground to take back, especially in the church. Yeah.

So I have a really hopeful outlook and I would say my hopeful outlook is like with my grandchildren. Yep. Like that's where my hope is.

I don't really know if there'll be much difference in 10, 15 years. If, you know, it'll be different. I'm sure when I'm, when I'm old, when I'm an old man, but because just times move so fast.

Now things change so quickly, but you still think about the last 10 years, how much has been different in the last 10 years? And it's crazy. Yeah. I mean, I would say the church is going in a good direction.

There seems to be some good, solid movements of men that are embracing some of these terms. And they're having a lot of kids. And I think over time, I think it will shift that way.

I think we're going to have a lot of fighting ahead of us. Yeah. You know, I don't think Trump went into the presidency was, you know, an answer for us.

I think it was just some more free time, you know, it bit us some more time. So yeah, I mean, I don't know if that was a good enough answer, but I do think there is some hope. I do think we're on the right trajectory.

And I also don't think that like some of the stuff that has been changing and a lot of these Christians that are kind of getting on board with this stuff is just historic Christianity. So I would, I don't really see a reason why God would have this raise up just to, you know, just to knock it out in a couple of years, because, you know, reading history helps or reading the crusades helps reading, you know, Christendom 1.0 is really helpful because, you know, there was plenty of times where it seemed like it was, you know, it like, especially with Alfred, you know, like, I can't imagine being in that scenario. I mean, there was there, there should have been no hope for that.

And yet, here we are. So I would say, I think these movements are good. And I think the guys that are writing stuff now putting on conferences, putting out material, the new publishing companies that are going up are, I think are going to make some good impacts.

You know, we just have to not let up, you know, we have to keep talking about this stuff and keep trying to, you know, not to fall into the same pit of taking these new advancements, which is really, this is really just recovering history, but not to make them spiritual. You know, we have to remember to keep applying them to keep grounding ourselves to keep doing these things practically. But I think we're on the right path.

So I have a lot of hope. This is a lot of fun, like having conversations like this is a lot of fun for me. So yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of fruit that is coming from this.

So I'm hopeful. Yeah. Amen.

So yeah, we've even seen that our little group from life point, you know, a lot of people coming around to this way of thinking, which is good. So yeah, I'm hopeful as well. And yeah, we'll keep praying for it and see what the Lord does.

And, you know, may the Lord have mercy, honestly. Oh, yeah, for sure. Okay.

Well, hey, brother, thanks for coming on super insightful stuff and good, good insight. And I appreciate it. I think everybody was the better for it.

So thanks for coming on. Yeah, this was fun. Thank you for having me.

So you guys have the True Myth podcast, right? Anything else you want to plug? No, I try not to really put myself out there too much because I'm still a young man and, you know, still an idiot. So, but yeah, this was just from this was just from conversations. We kind of had conversations like this with the guys that are on that podcast.

And we were kind of flushing through these ideas and, you know, we were trying to brainstorm how to get these ideas out to our church and to our community. And so we just decided to start recording them. So, you know, I'm not going to say we have all the answers and, you know, but yeah, we're definitely aiming at trying to get some of this stuff out in the public.

And our main goal for an audience is our church and our family and our, you know, very close community. So we don't do any advertisement or anything. Like we just, we're just trying to keep it local so that we can have just basically just a resource for our church to have some different stuff going out.

But yeah, it's called the True Myth podcast and it's me and two other of my good friends and then our pastor who we kind of discuss some of this stuff. And yeah, so that's great. Yeah, I think that's good.

I mean, it's an easy way to get information out, especially like I think the only people that really listen to my podcast are people that know me, you know, so. Yeah, same. Yeah.

So yeah, I'm sure most people listening are in Indiana. So go check out the True Myth podcast and their brothers in Indiana that are laboring, you know, right alongside you to see, you know, Indiana become a, you know, Christian state. So yeah, thanks for coming on Chance.

Appreciate your brother and always in with the doxology and first company 117 to the agent in the world. Listen, we'll be able to God be honoring the glory forever and ever. Amen.

So we are.