Former Muslim Hatun Tash: Debating Islam, Part 1

Knight & Rose Show — Wintery Knight and Desert Rose

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Former Muslim Hatun Tash: Debating Islam, Part 1

September 9, 2023

Knight & Rose ShowWintery Knight and Desert Rose

Wintery Knight and Desert Rose welcome our first guest onto the show. Hatun Tash is a former Muslim who was born in Turkey. We discuss the importance of perfect preservation of the Qur'an in Islam, and compare different translations to see if they all agree. We discuss Hatun's experiences discussing her Christian faith with Muslims in different countries. This is the first episode in a two part series.

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Show notes: https://winteryknight.com/2023/09/09/knight-and-rose-show-episode-38-former-muslim-hatun-tash-part-1

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Transcript

Welcome to the Knight & Rose Show, where we discuss practical ways of living out an authentic Christian worldview. Today, we're going to be interviewing a former Muslim about her ministry. She has a lot of experience speaking to Muslims about the Christian faith, so we're expecting to learn a lot from her.

I'm Wintery Knight. And I'm Desert Rose. Welcome, Rose.

So today we have a very special guest. Rose, why don't you do us the honor of introducing the first ever guest on the Knight & Rose Show. I would be happy to our guest today.

Today is Ms. Hatun Tash. She lived in a Muslim country for 27 years, but now lives in the UK. She studied various topics at university, including bank management and economy, law, including basic human rights, mathematics and physics, engineering, and philosophy.

She also studied apologetics at the Oxford Center for Apologetics in Oxford, England. And Hatun is the director of DCCI ministries. She lives in Evangelist lifestyle, and has a big burden to share the gospel and to see the church equipped.

Besides engaging with Muslims at Speakers Corner in London and in mosques every week, she is involved in Christian Muslim discussions, debates, and Bible studies, while also teaching and training Christians to be better witnesses for Christ. So, Hatun Tash, welcome to the Knight & Rose Show. Peace of Christ be with you sister.

Thank you for having me. Thank you. What a background.

So what does DCCI ministries stand for? Well, DCCI ministry stands for defend Christ, critic Islam. Excellent. Of course, that doesn't mean Jesus needs to be defended, but there are objections about him.

So those objections needs to be answered. So defend Christ and critic Islam. Excellent.

Wow. This is an impressive resume. All right.

Well, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about your background, who you are, where you came from and what you do now. So I am originally from Turkey. I've been in England over 10 years now.

My life is in England. I become a Christian over 10 years ago in England. And since I become a Christian day after day, I get to learn lots of things about my God, lots of things about Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as you know a little bit about him, by default, you are forced to go out and talk about him. I mainly engage with Muslim people to make sure they hear who is my God, make sure they hear about our glorious gospel. Turn to him.

I do that in many different platforms. There is a place called Speakers Corner, which is identified as the heart of freedom of speech in London this year. It's been 151 years it's been there.

So people would go to the square to have debates and discussions. I regularly attend the Speakers Corner on Sundays, as well as I go to mosques and do Bible studies with imams or do competitive studies with imams and Muslims in the intention of preaching the gospel, as well as answering their objections. I do lots of street preaching.

I don't know if you have that in the US. You kind of stand on the street. You've got mike or without mike.

You preach the gospel as well as people come and then bring up their questions. You have to get involved with discipling those new believers as you get to share the gospel with many people. Some of them live Islam and turn to Lord Jesus Christ.

So I am involved in the stage of first steps of discipling them, then plugging them into the church where church can disciple and look after those new believers. I am involved doing live streams and short video stuff. Excellent.

Excellent. I love it. This is great.

So, Hatun, before we met, when I would hear your name or someone would ask me, you know, who is Hatun Tash? What do you know about her? Usually the first thing that would come to mind to me would be your work in exposing the differences in the Quran. As you know, the perfect preservation of the Quran is really important for Muslims. I've actually had Muslims come up to me and introduce themselves to me as followers of the only true religion.

And their reasoning that they've told me that Islam is the only true religion is because the Quran is perfectly preserved. It's the only perfectly preserved book from God. And they say, that's why you need to become a Muslim.

Your book has changed. My Quran is perfectly preserved. So it's as central to Islam as like the resurrection, I think would be to Christianity.

So now, though, as a result of your work and the work of a few others, there are prominent Muslim scholars who are admitting that the Quran is not perfectly preserved. So how has this happened? What have you been doing to expose the truth? What is going on? This is an amazing time to be alive and to be ministering to Muslims and see all of this happening. Yes.

So I grew up hearing and knowing that there is one perfect Quran which has been perfectly preserved dot by dot, letter by letter, sound by sound. And word by word, wherever in the world you go, every Quran will be exactly the same. That's what my father told me.

That's what you hear from the Imams. That's what you learn from the schools. It was actually by accident I come across with different Arabic Quran.

I was in a Muslim majority country working with Christian missionaries there. They asked me which Quran is good translation where we can get one. We turn up the bookshop, asked for the Quran.

Everyone kind of recognized we were foreigners in that country. And the shopkeeper asked, which Quran do you want? I had this funny face like, there is only one Quran. He said, do you want half of the Quran or the worst Quran? I never heard half of the Quran or the worst Quran until that second.

And I didn't even know what it means. I asked how much it was. So with English currency, it was like under one pound.

So I got the second Quran, which was the worst Quran. And then I got back to England. I wanted to check what it is.

So I can recite Arabic. I can, if I am forced, if you tell me which verse it is, I can recite that verse to you. But I'm not Arabic speaker in Turkey.

We speak Turkish. Yet we need to recite Quran in Arabic. So I came back to England and then I start comparing if it is like exactly the same, why this Quran is called worst Quran.

And then I noticed the shapes of the letters were different. I was like, oh, word by word, dot by dot sound by sound, letter by letter. It's supposed to be same, but this looks different.

I got in touch with Arabic speaker and then I asked, are those words the same? She expressed, oh, no, that's different word than this word. And then she explained what was the differences. From that I said, oh, I've got two Quran I am holding in my possession and they are not dot by dot same kind of I took the homework off.

I'm going to compare all of them. So I start putting the Quran, my Quran as well as the one I bought it next to each other and underlined. Every word looked different to me.

And then give it to my friend to check it out. And then she provides some list for me. This word means this.

This word means this. I was shocked by it. And then I start telling people I've got different Arabic Quran.

It was difficult because no one wants to believe you, even though you show it to them, even the brother who I was working with, he didn't think it was a big deal in that stage. In my mind, like it's a big deal. We took the kind of homework of searching of it as as I start looking at, oh, what is worse? What is halves? You get to see Islamic tradition quiet.

A lot talks about there are different Arabic Quran's half. They canonize how they chose their Quran. So it wasn't like something new to anyone.

It was just new to me as well as 21st century Muslims, because from 900s, Muslims are talking about it. Yeah. And then kind of as I looked into it, that was the time I was kind of traveling quite a lot.

I ended up in Nigeria and then I bought some crumbs from Nigeria. I came back and then checked them. I ended up in Yemen, got some crumbs back and then checked it.

Jordan got back with the crumbs. And then I ended up having like, I think within over a year, I ended up having 26 different Arabic crumbs. Wow.

They were different from one another today. Two thousand twenty three. I've got 37 different Arabic crumbs with over 93,000 textual variations between them.

Wow. So that's how kind of I come across how I find it. And then once I find it, there are differences and it's been confirmed by Arabic speaker.

We start asking Muslims, which Quran is the word of Allah? Do you believe it has been perfectly preserved dot by dot, letter by letter? Because if the claim they make, oh, there are textual variations within the Quran, that's absolutely fine. But the claims they make is dot by dot, letter by letter, sound by sound, word by word. It's exactly the same from China to America.

As kind of we start questioning Muslims about it. Like what I did was I can be very rude person. It's like so natural.

It's like my default fault. And I try to get answers to my questions, as much as I can. So if my question is not answered this week, I'll come back next week with the same question.

Same question. So I was asking that question again and again, which one is the word of Allah? Why I've got different Arabic crumbs and Muslims were trying to ignore me, but that was kind of conversation took place between Muslim Sheikh and Muslim missionary in a YouTube program where Muslim Sheikh was asked, there are different Arabic crumbs, which one kind of is the right? I'm just rephrasing that in a way everyone can understand. So he was asking the question, which one is the word of Allah? And Sheikh explained what it is.

So there is a problem with something called Ahroof. There is a problem, something called kraad. And today the crumbs we have identified as kraad.

At the end, we don't know 40 different views, but I can say there are holes in the standard narrative. Yes. That that become like kind of running.

Yes. Yes. That was that Yasser Qadi who who yes, yes.

Yes. Made that phrase famous or infamous in the Muslim world. He said, OK, so there are holes in the narrative.

Yeah. And he was like being I when I first kind of start bringing those videos up and talking about it, I felt sorry for him because I know Islam, even though it is the religion of peace, but it can be a religion of pieces in certain occasions. So as like I become worried, like just giving the name of Yasser Qadi, because you never know what people might do to him for simply destroying the like perfect preservation idea of the Quran.

Right. In that interview, he was asked regarding if I give you two empty paper, which Quran would you write? Because at the end, that's what Allah kind of give to us expectation is from someone who for decades looking into this topic kind of they thought answer will be very simple. But Sheikh Yasser Qadi said, well, I don't know.

I will write little bit of that one, little bit of that one. And then we will have it at the end. Wow.

And since then, so that interview took place, I think it was 2020. Since then, Muslim missionaries published English book, which is labeled titled as translation of the 10 different krat. Okay.

So in his book, this Muslim, it is published by Muslim missionary. He's got Arabic and English next to each with the footnotes of thousands of variations. He says from this crown, this word is different from this crown.

This word is different. So over thousand of them. And then he says, this is only 30% of the variations what it has been affected.

So you mentioned that in Islam, variants are a big problem because the Quran is supposed to be inerrant and inerrant in its preservation. And so this is very different from Christianity, because when a person makes a commitment to anerrancy in Christianity, we make a commitment to the inerrancy of the originals. And we accept that there can be variants in the ones that are done today, particularly over time, there are changes that have been introduced that are very minor.

And so we have debates about this. And the variants are like an extra zero added to a number, or something like a slightly different word use. But for us, that's not a problem, because we don't have that view of our scriptures that says it has to be identical to the original given today.

And it has to be identical across all these different countries and across all these different translations. So what would be dangerous to an Islamic view of their scriptures is not the same as for us. Right.

So when we look at our Bible from the historical point, how it is written, what were the conditions were very different. So we were like individuals were just simply writing the scripture as they were hearing the letters are coming through versus in Islam, you got this leader, first and third caliph. So it was written under their authority by controlled individuals.

So letter by letter dot by dot, even though in the time of seven century, they didn't have the dots for Constantinople and for walls. Everything has been controlled. It was controlled transmission, even any manuscripts or any writings which was disagreeing what they had, they burned it.

Right. I heard about that. Like if you kind of come to England, you will see our history.

People were burned simply translating the Bible like it was under the persecution. People are being burned versus museums are burning their own scripture, simply disagreeing with one another. Okay.

Well, why don't you go ahead and give us some examples of differences in different versions of the Quran that our Muslim friends can investigate. And I'm particularly interested, like I said, there are some minor variants in Christianity. I think there's like differences from that have crept in over time, the extra digits and things like that.

But it doesn't affect any of our core doctrines. I've actually watched a debate between a skeptical historian named Bart Ehrman and Peter Williams, who you may have heard of who's an expert in New Testament. And Bart was asked to identify the variants that he thought were the most important.

And he identified four of them and none of them were very interesting at all. So if you can pick one of the Muslim variants that is important, you know, for their doctrine and show us some of the differences, I think that'd be really eye opening for our listeners. I'll do that, but also helpful to remember the question we are dealing is very different.

Argument we are dealing is very different. So it's supposed to be dot by dot, let us sound by sound word by word exactly the same. Yes.

In every part of the world, even though there are variations between them, at the end, Quran is uncreated word of Allah. And on the day of judgment, Quran is going to appeal as a pale man and intimacy for those who recited it. So therefore it becomes important even the dots are being pronounced or recited correctly.

Right. Quran has a place of intercessor. Yeah, it's really a different view than in Christianity.

Our Bible is the word of God, but it's not eternal God. So Quran takes the place of Jesus. Jesus is the eternal word of God, takes up human flesh, comes and dwells among us.

And Quran, eternal word of Allah, becomes a book and then steps into this creation. And on the day of judgment, it's going to appeal as a pale man. Well, it better be perfect because for us, Jesus is perfect.

And they're putting the scriptures in that place. Yeah. Comparing Quran to Jesus is helpful.

So if I give you one example, that should be more than enough because that's what Muslims are asking, like provide bring one example. Yeah, that should be good. Sound is different or anything is different.

For example, there is verse of Surah 14 verse 46. It is talking about the deception of Allah. And in one of the Quran, it states that mountains are removed.

In other Quran, mountains are not removed. So one of the verse is positive. One of them is negative.

So as a Christian, I am asking the question to my Muslim friend, which way did Allah revealed Allah cannot reveal in both ways because they're opposed to one another, positive or negative. Another example is, for example, Surah 17 verse 102. It is Moses and Pharaoh is used in that verse.

In one of the Quran, it says you for Moses. And in another Quran, it is for I Pharaoh. So do you want like detail revealed as Pharaoh or detail revealed as Moses is a lot talking and addressing Pharaoh or is a lot talking and addressing Moses you versus I Surah 10 verse 16 will not make it known to you will not make it known to you.

So that's negative sentence in another Quran. It is will make it known to you. Is our luck going to make it known or not going to make it known.

So what did Allah revealed at the first place? There is another very well known verse which affects Muslims practical life. For example, before Muslims pray, they need to clean up themselves. They need to wash their hands.

They need to wash their noise, ears, feet, head, all those kinds of things. It is identified as voodoo. That's that's for example, if I shake your hand before I need to go to the prayer, I need to have voodoo.

But if man have sexually touched a woman, he needs to have shower. It is called gusul. Okay.

And both of them needs to be done before they go to prayer. So Surah five verse 16. It is talking about the word touch in one of the Quran.

It is when you sexually touch in other Quran. It is when you touch as like handshake. Wow, that's a big difference.

So that like that small one letter is different in actually in that word. One letter is different. And that word simply changes how you need to approach the prayer.

Do you do I need to have Shava or do do I need to wash my hand and my feet? Yeah. Another verse, for example, talking about there are certain times. So Joni Ramadan, you are encouraged to fast.

You are commanded to fast for 30 days. If you cannot fast, there are the ways you can make it up. For example, you can feed one person or if you follow the other Quran, you need to feed two or more people.

So one Quran, you've got to feed one person in other Quran, two and more. So approximate four or five days in a month, Joni Ramadan, woman cannot fast. So should woman feed one person or should woman feed two or more? We don't know.

Right. And in a religion that is works based where there isn't the grace that we have or the payment for our sins, even what might seem like minor differences to a Christian could have a pretty significant impact about how you live your life. Allah is keeping track apparently of every single thing you do and how you do it and how you say it and everything else.

But as you pointed out earlier, the biggest problem with these differences is that that is not what the narrative is. That's not what the Quran says. The Quran says the words of God cannot be changed.

And so this is a problem for Islam. Yeah, the bar is very high for them with respect to their scriptures. So lots of individuals express that they become a Muslim.

They were not Muslim before they become a Muslim because someone told them, oh, your Bible is corrupted, but my Quran is exactly the same in every part of the world. And people decided, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Let me become a Muslim.

But they've been lied to. Right. Yeah.

This is the big argument that's offered for this. So it's it's big trouble for them that these variants are there. Okay.

So let me ask you a different question. I would love to pick up a book on this topic. So are there are there any books that I think you mentioned that there was like that translation that was showing in footnotes, all the different variants.

Tell us about some books like that one and maybe some others where these things are discussed. So sadly, there are not many books translated into English. We've got only handful books and people are just like coming and writing those books and approaching those things recently.

If you are a big speaker in Muslim world, all you need to do is commentaries on the 10 crowd or 14 crowd in Arabic world. Just have done people talked about it for centuries argument like perfect preservation of the Quran approach came to us like within last few decades. So there are Muslim scholars like Sheikh Yasser Qadi gives course on the different Arabic Quran.

You need to take his course pretty expensive or the book I mentioned called bridges translation of the 10 crowd. Bridges translation of the 10 crowd. So that's Arabic and English next to each other with the thousands of footnotes simply tells us there are differences because Arabic is different.

Even when you translate it to English, it becomes different. The book is put together by fadles suleiman. So bridges translation of the 10 crowd of the Quran by fadles suleiman.

That you can even get the PDF of it. It's very cheap. Okay, great.

I have a question for you. So I try to have conversations, gospel conversations with people whenever I have the opportunity, kind of wherever I go and whatever I'm doing. And I'm really interested in this topic.

And lately, I've seemed to be asking being asked to speak on it more and to and ask questions about it. So can you tell us about your approach to evangelism? I'm not very friendly person. I am introvert.

And I'm task oriented. As the time goes on, when you grow up, and then when you become older and older and older, you become more task focus. In early days, when I was talking with individuals right now, my main focus is Muslims and Muslim missionaries.

When I would talk to individuals, I would just like take my dogs out for walk and then dogs are beautiful. We were talking about this yesterday. Yeah.

People can kind of come and say, Oh, you've got beautiful dog. And then I'm just like, well, she's beautiful. But not only she's beautiful, she's also faithful, not like us.

As a human beings, we were unfaithful. We turn away from God, but dogs are always faithful. They look up to your stuff.

From that you open up conversation about God and religion. And you start with original sin. I love it.

That's great. As the time goes, went on, when I become much older, it changed. So now I do many different ways.

So I can simply in early days, when I first start looking into Islam, I would just go walk in front of the mosque and pray for that mosque. And then that approach change. I'm going to stand in front of the mosque and give leaflet out, which says Jesus is love and hope that they will talk to me and then we will have conversation.

With that approach, people would take the leaflet and then they would say, we love Jesus too. And then so it wasn't helping me to have the conversations. Right.

Because he's considered a great prophet in Islam. He's a prophet and you cannot be Muslim if you do not follow or believe in Jesus. So that approach didn't work because I want to have conversation with them.

I want to sit down and open the scripture so that they can get to see the truth. And then I noticed it's always in the discussions. It is always Muslims ask the questions to Christians and every week it is exactly the same question.

Doesn't matter you answer the question or not. You come back next week. It is the same question.

And then I thought as the time goes on, you kind of notice they never allow you to ask questions. You learn to get into the secrets. Okay.

I'm going to ask a question. I'm going to cut off that person and then put my question in. Once you start asking questions, you get to see they don't know how to answer a question because they never done apologetics.

They always done polemics like attacking other faiths or critiquing other faiths instead of defending their faith. So I kind of start developing new skills of, okay, even though I am a woman, I'm going to ask questions. I made that comment because in Islam, like place of woman is little bit different.

It's like not acceptable to ask questions. So I start standing in front of mosque and saying, where did Jesus say it? I'm God worship me. Come and find the answer or Mohammed is false prophet.

Prove me wrong. Or or Quran has been changed. So like kind of start with a statement which will draw crowd.

And then you have conversations. And as the time went on, I went inside and then I introduced myself to Imam. Imam's are the individuals who leads the prayer in the mosques.

Hi, my name is Hattun. I am Christian. I believe Bible is the reliable word of God.

I believe in trying God. I believe Jesus Christ is the eternal son of the father who died on the cross for my sins. Do you have any objection? And then from that conversation will start.

I'm giving them opportunity to ask me questions. So that's one of the way people can do it. That reminds me of Paul in the book of Acts.

It reminds me absolutely nothing of our culture or what I've ever been told in the churches or it seems like an approach that in the US at least would, you know, would be considered way too direct and confrontational and that sort of thing. But I love it. I love it.

I don't think in Muslim culture it becomes as like rude or unkind or very direct because God is the most important thing to us. As a Christian, I want to leave my every breath in and out to honor Him. Muslims do all of their duties so they want to honor God.

So we want to have these conversations. Those things are important to us. It's always easy to find the common grounds and then talk about common grants.

But I'm not God. I don't know when that person is going to die. It might be like a minute after my conversation or it might be even journey to my conversation that person might die or within 45 years.

So I'll just kind of find the differences because whatever we have difference that affects our eternal life. Common things, okay, they are common, but differences are most important things and they are affecting our eternal life. So therefore starting with the differences kind of helps me to keep the conversation going on.

And I kind of invite people who kind of want to make their case on Christianity or Islam to come to the Bible studies. So it's very easy. Like if you just get into the mosque and then express why you are there.

You are not saying, Oh, I am there because I'm interested in Islam. No, I am there because your core belief and my core belief is different from one another. And both of them cannot be right.

We need to discuss that. They know your intention. They know why you are there.

And then you take it from there. People are actually very interested on having especially Muslim people. They want to have those conversations.

I have like every morning any different Imam where I sit down and compare Islam versus Christianity or Jesus versus crown Jesus versus Mohammed. So you pick up the topics and then you get to meet with those people and then have these discussions. And you can even invite museums from the mosque to come to the comparative Bible studies comparing Islam and Christianity.

It's like very similar setting to the Christian house groups in the churches. They come only differences. You talk about Bible as well as you talk about Islam and you compare the differences, not like, okay, let's find what we have in common, but what we have a difference and how those things effects.

It's very easy. Like few years ago before lockdown, I had approximate 800 people from Monday to Saturday who would come to do those Bible studies. People like to talk about religion, especially if they come from a Muslim culture because they believe in a God.

You kind of say, okay, that's what we have in common. Let's stand on the streets with a book table or without book table and talk about Jesus. People come and then ask their questions or as they pass by, you ask your questions so they will stop and answer your question.

There are different ways. Like I was in Dearborn last week where you simply go and knock people's door and then tell them, I am here to talk about Jesus. Would you like to talk about Jesus? Or you can stand in the parks and then invite people to come and have debates and discussions with you.

So there are many different ways. A good thing with that is because everyone is unique. Our trying God is so unique.

He made every individual unique. Therefore, what you do with one person won't work with another person or it might work with another person. So you need to pray fully.

Consider how Lord is leading you to approach each individuals. Excellent. Okay.

Then I wanted to ask you, you kind of just talked a little bit about this, but what are some of the responses that you've had from Muslims when you share the truth with them in these different ways, like in these small Bible studies and then going door to door and then going outside the mosque and then into the mosque to present your views and see if you can start a conversation. Do people listen? Has anyone ever admitted that they were wrong? Do people yell at you? Do they try to hurt you? Does anyone ever try to steal the different Qur'ans that you're showing them? So you get very different response from how you are approaching and whom you are speaking to. I have individuals who joined the Bible studies at the end of the Bible studies.

They said, I don't want to be Muslim anymore. I want to be Christian. How I can do that.

Or I had individuals who came to the Bible studies took part and then they said, I understand it. This is what you believe and it might be correct, but I'm comfortable where I am. Yeah.

I hear that a lot too. Yeah. So, and then from that only, as soon as they clarify what they understood, because gospel is so powerful, those gospel wouldn't allow someone to just stay where they are.

So maybe I miscommunicated the gospel. I want to hear from them what they understood. I've been saying about Jesus.

Once they tell me, this is your gospel. His father loved the world. Therefore he gives one and only son through him.

We are already deemed once they give me the kind of summary of the gospel. And then they say, this is what you are telling me. And I don't want to sign it to that.

That's absolutely fine. They heard it. They respond is no.

Our God is not rapist. We cannot force God to own them. If they make the choice to reject him, that's up to them.

So you pray for them and you pray for them and you pray for them. Lord will deal with them. Versus there are individuals who like most of times like I didn't communicate well.

So I find different ways to communicate with them. What is our glorious gospel? You've got individuals who kind of invites you to go and explain to them. They want to come and join the Bible studies.

You've got Imams who leave Islam and become a Christian and then they draw their family to Christ. You've got Muslim men and Muslim women doctors or students or non-educated individuals who are willing to walk away from Islam once they find the truth about Islam. And we step in and then we make sure they turn to Jesus Christ.

Because our main goal is yes, it takes only two minutes, like even less than two minutes to cause Muslims to have doubt on his fate. Two minutes. They can have doubt and then they might walk away from Islam.

But we want them to become a Christian because if you die without Lord Jesus Christ, bottom line is you are not going to spend eternity with him. You are going to be separated from him. And that separation place where we identify as hell is Muhammad is going to be there.

Other Muslims are going to be there. So there is no point for Muslims to walk away from Islam and then not turn to Lord Jesus Christ. If they don't turn to Lord Jesus Christ, they're spending eternity with Muhammad wherever Muhammad is going to be.

So purpose is making sure they hear the gospel and they turn to Lord Jesus Christ. And along the way God has been gracious to us, we've got to see thousands are turning to Lord Jesus Christ. Of course, it is not easy for someone to figure out they've been lied to, or it is not easy for someone to confirm that actually I made a mistake.

I am in the wrong path. Yes, I want to turn to Lord Jesus. Those commitments are like serious commitments.

Wow. People don't like to hear that there is different worldview or there is different way. There is right way.

They get passionate about their faith. Sometimes they get aggressive. Like I've been in a mosque where I joined individuals to have dinner with them, as well as I've been in a mosque where I got beaten and hospitalized.

So it's different. It's different from each mosque and each individuals. I've been kind of hospitalized a couple of times.

You ask if anyone still your books, people get very passionate and they just think if they take your property, your arguments are going to stop. But like grave couldn't hold Lord Jesus Christ. And people think like just stealing or yelling or hurting you is going to stop anything.

Right. Yeah, that's really good. It's really good.

I think, and you know, half my family is Muslim. So what I noticed with them, you know, growing up and having these discussions is that they like to have these discussions and they interpret strong convictions in a very favorable way. And I think it may be shocking to some Western Christians to hear how frank you are with bringing up these topics.

And I just would ask everybody to remember how life was like for us before we found the Lord and follow, follow the Lord Jesus. Like we were separated from God and we were in charge of our own lives and without any understanding of how the world worked or any relationship with God. And thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus, now we can have a relationship with God.

And it's a big difference. And it's something that we should be anxious to recommend to other people. It makes a huge difference in our lives.

It's the most important thing. So I think it's good for people in the West to hear that and just hear that it can be the case that people can be receptive to this message and that they can change their minds if we're bold with them and let them know where we stand. And I'm just thinking of some of the places where I've been frank with people about my beliefs.

Like in graduate school, we had an exchange student from Egypt and she was a Muslim and I was a little bit scared to talk to her, but let her know. And we had some good conversations about that. She was very mad about the Crusades.

I remember that. She drew a cross and said, what's that thing that you guys did a long time ago? And I had to explain the history of that and kind of diffuse her objections. It's important for Christians to know that that's what's expected of them, that they be known as Christians and that they be willing to explain the gospel to non-Christians.

One of the things that you said, Hatoon, that stood out to me was there were, what did you say, 800, 1000 people, 800 coming to Bible studies. You've seen so many people respond over the years to your sharing the truth with them. And I think about how much time I spend talking to believers about the importance of sharing the truth with others and the responses I get, things like it doesn't make any difference anyway, so I'm not going to do it.

And responses like, well, I just don't really know what to say, but it sounds like you have been very intentional to equip yourself with the truth to learn apologetics, to learn about problems with Islam and to go out and share the truth in obedience to the Lord, regardless of the results. And what you've seen is an amazing response. I think there is a problem.

If we seem to say, well, people might not change their mind, therefore there is no need or thinking, oh, you've got to learn certain things to go and tell people about it. Like think about it. The one who holds the universe with the power of his world, the one who all heaven and earth belong steps into this world and then gives his life for you, conquers that grave, walks out alive from that grave.

As a Christian, we should be all silent by that love. The one who holds the universe becomes one of us. If that just doesn't change, like doesn't phrase your mind, like when I think about it, I'm just like silent by that love.

There is nothing I can do like. So you are silent by that love. Doesn't matter how much you know, or doesn't matter.

You don't know anything. You should be by default, like there should be urge in your heart tells the world, well, there is someone who cares for you. There is someone who left heaven, stepped into this broken world and give himself for you.

I do my part and like out of conviction, I go and tell them. Doesn't matter if I see where they want to stay or if they want to change or not. That's not my like, I'm not God.

That's God's word. God will convict the hearts of individuals. My job is make sure they hear who the truth is.

Make sure even I don't even need to make sure that that's even God's job as well. Like I'll just step in and then tell them what it is, how my life has been changed and transformed as well as other arguments. Like we've got in John nine, like blind man doesn't know anything.

He doesn't get the doctrine correct yet, but he tells he's the changing happened in my life. So I don't think anyone should be even waiting to learn something as soon as you are convicted that love of Lord Jesus Christ is so powerful. Silence you that's the love which makes you breathe out and breathe in.

Everyone should know about it. I work in information technology, so we have like a lot of Muslims and Hindus there. I find that it's a useful thing even to come to the point where they say, well, this is what my family believes.

This is what my community believes. You won't get me to change from this. And to be able to say to them, well, Christianity is about truth.

And so even if my family disagrees with me as mine does like me, wintery, you know, my family doesn't believe the things that I believe. It's still useful to share with non-Christians that what this is about, it is about truth. It's not about adopting what my nation believes, what my family believes, what my community believes.

And that's a useful thing to clarify, I think for them. You can't follow something or believe something because someone else believes that you can't follow something. When I first came to England, I couldn't speak any English, OK? Hello.

That was it. It wasn't even high. And I was like, OK, how am I going to get out of the airport? I was told in Turkey, just follow the crowd, everyone will go to the same exit.

Well, that didn't go well because people were taking the plane to Manchester so that they were taking their connection for life. I end up like another passport checkpoint. So you can't follow like blind guys blind.

You can't follow others because what they are doing at the end, you are your own individual on the day of judgment. My father or my mother is not going to give account for me. I am the one who is going to give account and I am not even justified.

I am not even self justified by saying, oh, I do this because that person did it. God won't be justified with that answer either. Let me ask you one more question.

Do you have any more thoughts about what some things are that our listeners maybe should know about sharing the gospel with Muslims in case that's something they're interested in or have the opportunity to do? So Christian faith teaches that God is trying God, Father, Son, and Spirit, Son of God stepped into the world and died on the cross by crucifixion and on the third day he walked out of that grave. Christian's Scripture teaches submission to the Bible and we are saved by God's grace alone. Verses, Islam comes and then says God is not trying.

Islam comes and then says Jesus is not the Son of God. Islam comes and then says Jesus was not crucified. Muslim turns up and then says your Bible is corrupted.

Islam comes and then says actually you've got to do things. You've got to do more things. You've got to do more things and if at the end God is merciful to you, you are going to get into paradise.

So all the core doctrine of Christianity is being undone or debunked by Islam. So Islam teaches everything against our core Christian beliefs. As soon as anyone who keeps it in their mind when they are engaging with Muslims, it will be helpful in their evangelisms like Islam comes and then undo our glorious gospel.

It seems like a lot of times in the United States when I meet Muslims they try to focus on what we have in common and what is similar between Christianity and Islam. In reality the similarities are very shallow, very very shallow and yet it doesn't take a lot of digging to see the immense differences and the differences are huge. They really make all the difference.

As you said, Islam challenges all of the core beliefs of Christianity, the core teachings, the core truths about who God is and how to be saved and why we should have hope and how we should live our and all of that. I think that this has been really really helpful. We'll see you again in the next one!