Are All Religions the Same? Part 4: Prophecy

Knight & Rose Show — Wintery Knight and Desert Rose

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Are All Religions the Same? Part 4: Prophecy

August 12, 2023

Knight & Rose ShowWintery Knight and Desert Rose

Wintery Knight and Desert Rose continue their discussion about whether all religions are equally valid paths to God. In this episode, we look at a passage from the Bible that makes many specific predictions about the Messiah. We'll discuss whether Jesus is a good match for the predictions in the passage. Then we respond to objections from a well-known skeptic. This episode is the fourth in a five-part series.

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Show notes: https://winteryknight.com/2023/08/12/knight-and-rose-show-episode-36-are-all-religions-the-same-part-4

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Music attribution: Strength Of The Titans by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/5744-strength-of-the-titans License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Transcript

Welcome to the Knight and Rose Show, where we discuss practical ways of living out an authentic Christian worldview. Last episode, we talked about some examples of bad prophecies and bad predictions from many different worldviews, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, secular humanism, Darwinism, and even climate change alarmism. Today, we're going to look at an example of a good prophecy from a much better worldview.

I'm Wintery Knight. And I'm Desert Rose. Welcome, Rose.

I know that you've prepared to talk about a very good example of prophecy and that you think is strong and defensible. But before you get started on that, I just wanted to let everyone know that if you're skeptical about prophecy as an argument, so was I. And when I was going over this outline for this episode with you, I said, I don't think we should talk about this. Prophecy is just weird.

Why would you make that argument? Let's stick with the science, you know, the history. And by the end of going over the material for our outline, I was convinced that this was a much better argument than I thought. And I think that if our listeners stick with us, give us a little bit of time, especially the second half, you're going to really get a new tool for your tool chest if you didn't know this one already.

Yeah, it was a lot of fun to have to try to convince you to do this episode. So yes, let's see if we can do a good job. I was not willing to be convinced, but you are right.

So why don't you go ahead and get us started? What is this evidence all about? OK, well, we are going to look at Psalm 22, which was written about a thousand years before Jesus and Christians claim that this Psalm was fulfilled by Jesus' death. And subsequent resurrection and the preaching of the gospel throughout the world. So you might remember that when Jesus was on the cross, it's recorded in Matthew 27, 46, and about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani.

That is, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? OK, so Jesus was experiencing great affliction and grief, but he wasn't wondering why the father hadn't rescued him or doubting God's goodness. He already knew this was the plan. He had already said so the evening before in the Garden of Gethsemane.

OK, so he's not saying this because he really is thinking God, the father has forsaken him. He's got some other reason for saying this. He does have other reasons for saying that.

Yeah. And in a sense, he is forsaken, but he's not wondering why or confused about what's going on. There's evidence for that, that he knows what's going on.

But OK, and I'll explain this. So in Jesus' day, there were no chapters and verses in the scriptures. OK, so if he was on the cross and he wanted people to think about all of Psalm 22, he couldn't just cry out from the cross.

Psalm 22, remember Psalm 22 or something like that to draw attention to it. OK. But what he could do and what rabbis often did in order to call people's attention to a long section of scripture was to cite a concept from that larger section or to quote the first sentence of a much, much larger passage.

And Jews who had studied the Hebrew scriptures would then think of all of the text around the section that had been quoted. OK, so so in this case, well studied Jews who heard Jesus say, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me as he was on the cross would have thought of what is now known as all of Psalm 22 as they looked upon him on the cross. OK, and I have a very good example of this.

When I was in undergrad, I was attending an Anglican church and one time he preached on a sermon about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. And he said he told a story about the British expeditionary force being stuck in Dunkirk and being pushed up against the English Channel by the German forces in 1940. And the British government sent a message to the British forces there and said, how are you know, how are things going? You know, and the British commander of the expeditionary force said he just sent back a short message that was, but if not.

And I remember my Anglican pastor saying now there was a time in England where everybody would immediately know what that passage was referring to. It was referring to Daniel and his three friends being threatened with death because they wouldn't bow down to this idol. And so this is what the British commander was saying.

He was saying, we don't want to die, but if we have to die to keep faith with our nation, then we're willing to do it. So what Jesus is saying, he's saying, I'm not going to give you the whole Psalm 22. He's saying, I'm going to give you the first line and you're going to know what my state of mind was when I'm in this situation.

Does that sound right to you? Absolutely. That's such a great analogy. Yeah, it really is.

And Jesus was on the cross. Think remember that he was in the process of suffering and dying of asphyxiation. He couldn't breathe.

He had that he would have to push himself up against the nails to be able to breathe. And so, yeah, so he wasn't going to. He certainly wasn't going to quote the whole Psalm he wanted people to think of.

So the natural question would be why would Jesus want to call attention to Psalm 22 in particular as he died on the cross, right? Yes. So let's look at the first verse. It says, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? So as Christians, we know the answer to this.

Jesus was forsaken for our salvation. He took on the wrath of God in our place. He paid the penalty that we deserve.

So we may be forgiven of our sins and reconciled to God. All right. Does that make sense so far? Yeah.

So let's go to verses two through five. Oh my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer. And by night, but I find no rest.

Yet you are holy and thrown on the praises of Israel in you. Our fathers trusted. They trusted and you delivered them to you.

They cried and were rescued in you. They trusted and were not put to shame. Okay.

He sounds to me like he's trying to identify with people who have suffered for being on God's side. You know, they trusted in God and he's saying God delivered them. He's expecting that God's going to deliver him or that.

I think he's drawing a distinction here between himself and others. He's saying that others have been delivered as they've trusted in God, but he is not likely to be rescued, at least not right away. Okay.

So also notice that the Psalm affirms that God is holy. There's no reason to believe Jesus was questioning God's goodness. Even as he acknowledges that he's being forsaken, you know, he knows he's not going to be rescued from the suffering and death, but he also knows that God is holy.

Yeah. It seems to me like when you read it that I think he is expecting vindication of some sort at some point, maybe not like today, you know, at the point where he's suffering, but he's saying people who trust God get vindicated eventually, even if it's not in this life. Yeah.

Let's let's keep going just in case it sounds like maybe we are reading a bit too much into that so far. But we do know that whoever this is about, they are being forsaken or feel like they are, and they are stating that God is holy and that people who have trusted in him in the past have been vindicated, they've been rescued. So we're up to verse six now.

Yes. So it says, but I am a worm and not a man scorned by mankind and despised by the people, this is actually a really cool section that I want to share something about not to convince skeptics right here at this part, but for Christians listening, because I think it's just really fascinating. Okay.

So he says, but I am a worm and not a man. There are actually different Hebrew words for worm. Hebrew is not a language of many, many, many words, but oddly enough, there are many different words for worm.

And the word used here is tola at. Okay. It holds special significance for Jews because this particular worm was where they got the red dye for the tabernacle coverings and for their clothing.

In English, we call it the Kermis worm, which is a fun name. But what's so remarkable as a Christian is this worm, the tola at worm, the Kermis worm has to die in order to give its offspring life. Okay.

And check this out. The Kermis worm attaches itself to a tree, fastens itself to the tree. So it can't move even when it wants to.

Then it gives birth to its young and the new worms eat the mother in order to live. Okay. So Jesus is going to the cross to be willingly attached to the tree.

He's dying to give life to his quote offspring. And he turns people's attention to this passage, which references the tola at worm, which would give its life, its life, uh, so that its offspring would live. So I think that's really cool.

Yeah. If people want to check up the spelling of that, it's a T O L a dash a T H. Exactly. Yeah.

And in English, it's a K E R M E S. I believe. All right. So let's continue and see what's in verse seven.

Okay. Uh, versus seven and eight, all who see me mock me, they make mouths at me. They wag their heads.

He trusts in the Lord. Let him deliver him. Let him rescue him for he delights in him.

Okay. So here the phrases make mouths at me also translated shoot out the lip and also the phrase wag their heads were their cultural ways of basically flipping someone off, giving the middle finger. They would, people would stick out their lower lip and shake their head.

And it communicated disgust, hatred, insult, kind of content, condemnation of people. Mm-hmm. Uh, they're also, uh, ridiculing him saying he trusts in the Lord.

Let the Lord deliver him. Okay. In other words, whoever this is, he has a reputation of godliness, but the onlookers actually see this crucifixion.

They see this event as evidence that God has rejected him, even though he trusted in the Lord. So about those words, he trusts in the Lord, let him deliver him. Isn't that what the people were saying to Jesus while he was being crucified according to the historical record? Yeah, yeah, actually that's a, Matthew recorded that in, um, in verse 33, he wrote, he trusts in God, let God deliver him now if he desires him.

For he said, I am the son of God. Yeah. So that's, that's what people are saying to him.

So we're looking at Psalm 22 as a kind of foreshadowing or a prophecy of what happened to Jesus. And so it's ruling out a lot of different people getting into trouble here because it's matching up very closely with what happened to Jesus and ruling out lots of other times when other people have been in trouble and people didn't say these kinds of things to them. Exactly.

And the Jews, um, acknowledged that Jesus trusted in God, but they rejected him and mocked him because God didn't prevent him from being crucified that was seen as a curse of the Hebrew scriptures talk about being hung on a tree as a curse. It sounds like what they're saying is the audience that he had right there for his death, they were saying, if you claim to be in this great relationship with God and that you're trusting God and so on, then God wouldn't let you be crucified because that particular thing is seen as a curse. Right.

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

But of course that's not what Christianity teaches, but yes, that's exactly what they're thinking. So in verses nine and 10 of Psalm 22, it says, yet you are he who took me from the womb. You made me trust you at my mother's breasts on you was I cast from my birth and from my mother's womb, you have been my God.

Okay. So this person speaking has trusted in God since he was in his mother's womb. You know, that eliminates a lot of people.

Yeah. So far we've seen suggestions, like they're clearly talking about somebody who trusts God from his mother's womb, who's now in trouble and he's expecting vindication. I mean, that's not, that's not exactly pointing to Jesus.

In fact, a lot of people say this song was written by David and David is talking about himself. Maybe David thought he had trusted God from his mother's womb. Does this sound like David? I mean, David didn't trust God from his mother's womb.

He, he made a lot of mistakes. You know, he, I actually don't even, this is going to be controversial, but he's not one of my favorite characters in the Bible. I know everybody says that he's a man after God's own heart and he talks to God, but he, he makes some pretty bad mistakes.

And so I don't think that David could write that and say that, you know, he had trusted God from his mother's womb. So maybe it's talking about someone else. I don't know.

What do you think? I definitely think it fits Jesus a whole lot better than it fits David. We can say that safely. Yeah.

Well, so far there's more to come and, and some very specific things. So let's see what, what's in verse 11. Okay.

Be not far from me for trouble is near and there is none to help. Many bulls encompass me. Strong bulls of Bashan surround me.

They open wide their mouths at me like a ravening and roaring lion. So bulls are a Hebrew metaphor for people who are not only mean, but also very powerful. Bashan was a territory that Israel won in the conquest of Canaan.

It was a place of giants like King Og and giant oak trees. It was associated with strength and wealth. So these many bulls referred to here, these strong bulls of Bashan are metaphors for powerful people of wealth and influence.

So Jesus was crucified as a result of cooperation between the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the high priests of the Jews, Herod, the puppet king of the Jews and Pontius Pilate, the Roman procurator of Judea. So it's a whole bunch of powerful people. It just matches.

It matches up. Okay. So this isn't like I got into a car accident.

This is like a whole bunch of powerful people came after me and made me suffer. Right. Exactly.

Yeah. So we're just limiting it down more and more to what circumstances this could have described. Yeah.

So moving on, versus 14 and 15. I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax.

It is melted within my breast. My strength is dried up like a potsard. And my tongue sticks to my jaws.

You lay me in the dust of death. Okay. So think about what happened to Jesus.

Okay. He was beaten, right? He was lashed with a whip made of bones and metal at the end of it that was designed to tear flesh away from the body and expose organs. He would have dripped blood all the way from Jerusalem to Golgotha, which sounds, you know, a bit like being poured out like water.

Right. He was severely dehydrated, which occurs from massive blood loss. So when it talks about my tongue sticks to my jaw, that fits perfectly with severe dehydration.

He carried the horizontal part of the cross until he collapsed, which seems to fit well with my strength is dried up like a potsard. A potsard was a dried, cracked piece of pottery. Mm hmm.

So also Jesus' arms were spread out. He was nailed to a cross. Nails were driven into his wrists and his ankles.

So this position makes it impossible to breathe without pushing your body up against the nails and ripping the raw back. And it makes it impossible to maintain bodily structure and integrity. Okay.

So think about a body that's not able to maintain its structure. Yeah. The body is being pulled downward by gravity, but the arms are being held up and outward by the nails.

So shoulders would become dislocated and then other joints would become dis- yeah, would become dislocated as well. All my bones are out of joints. Yes, exactly.

Yes. Also, his body didn't get enough oxygen. This is known as asphyxiation.

And eventually his heart stopped, which fits well with my heart is like wax. It is melted within my breast. A Roman soldier also stabbed him according to the records that we have.

He was stabbed with a spear and blood and water poured out of him. At least that's, that's the description we're given, which fits the, you know, the fluid that we'd expect to see when the pericardium around the heart is punctured. That also fits the description of being poured out like water.

Right. Okay. And then the phrase dust of death.

This means that he was on the verge of death. Every Jew would, would have recognized this phrase. Man was formed from dust and when he dies, his body returns to dust.

And this may have conjured up images of specifically of Adam and the curse that made Jesus' death necessary for reconciliation. But even if you don't go that far, even if you think that's reading a bit too much into it, which I don't necessarily think it does. Cause I mean, when you think of man and dust, the dust of death, I think it makes perfect sense to think of Adam, but regardless, every Jew would have known that this was a reference to death, to, to returning to the dust.

So now we're getting even more like constrained. What could this be talking about? It has to be some kind of godly man who's suffering even to the point of death. And the kind of death isn't just like, I don't know, getting your head chopped off something quick and, you know, painless or whatever.

It's, it's a certain kind of death that fits with Jesus' crucifixion pretty well. It's not an accident. Yeah.

It's not falling off a horse or something like that. Right. Being surrounded by strong, powerful people, being mocked and having your bones all out of joint and being dehydrated and all of things like this.

So, so moving on, verses 16 and 17. For dogs encompass me, a company of evildoers encircles me. They have pierced my hands and feet.

I can count all my bones. Yes. They stare and gloat over me.

All right. So the phrase, they pierced my hands and feet, his hands and feet were pierced by the nails as the records record. They didn't have a more specific word for wrists or ankles.

Wrists were just considered part of the hands and ankles were considered part of the feet. Yeah. So this is accurate with what we know about the death of Jesus as well.

And he says, I can count all my bones. People were often stripped naked for crucifixion. Their ribs were exposed.

Their, their bones were coming out of the sockets. This makes perfect sense. And, you know, and this, we're not talking about a culture of obese people here.

So I can count all my bones makes perfect sense in the context of Jesus death. Yeah. So big jump in terms of specificity now.

Right. Exactly. From the piercing of hands and feet.

Lower wrists and ankles. Right. Verse 18 says, they divide my garments among them and for my clothing, they cast lots.

Matthew 27 35 says they divided up Jesus garments by casting lots. Yeah. Okay.

So even more specificity that that doesn't seem like something that would happen in the modern age, you know, they would just go, Oh, wait, well, we executed a criminal and then we just threw his clothes out. But that's not what happened in, in this case, probably because clothes are a little harder to make back then or something. Anyway, continue.

Verses 19 to 21 say, but you, Oh Lord, do not be far off. Oh, you might help come quickly to my aid. Deliver my soul from the sword.

My precious life from the power of the dog. Save me from the mouth of the lion. You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen.

Hmm. So again, we get to the rescue part where he's expecting some kind of vindication from God, the father. And if he does get that vindication, then at the point where, you know, he's not going to get it now.

So how many people have got vindication after they get killed? Right? Exactly. We have, um, you know, that he's at the point at the dust of death, that phrase earlier, which seems to strongly indicate that he died. I mean, that is right at the point of death.

Right. So this person is being rescued somehow, despite having been the dust of death. Right.

I could still imagine that there's a case where somebody has something locked up in their safety deposit box and they get, you know, executed by a powerful people and then people discover this hidden dossier and then they get vindicated so it could be, you know, it's still not quite pinned down yet, but the next part might give us what we're looking for. Yes. You like the bit, the next part and for good reason, favorite part.

So now there's a big shift in the Psalm from describing the scene at the dust of death to proclaiming the results of the event. Okay. So skipping to verse 27, Psalm 22, 27 says, all the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord and all the families of the nations shall worship before you.

So whatever this event is, it will result in people all over the planet turning to the Lord, families of all nations, worshiping Yahweh, the God of Israel. Yeah. I mean, that's remarkable.

Right. That's yeah. This is, this is crazy because this is coming out of the Jewish tradition.

So how are you going to get people from all the nations to worship the God of Israel? So this, this death of this person is going to result in everybody from all over the world, worshiping the God of Israel. Yeah, exactly. The Jews were this tiny group of people.

They weren't even going out and evangelizing the nations. I mean, I don't, most Jews don't even do that today. They kept to themselves.

Even their neighbors around them didn't worship their God. They kept to themselves. So whatever this event is, it has to have a global impact and that is not going to be obvious or easy given the, uh, yeah, this is what we know about.

The changes. Like, how are you going to get all the peoples all over the world to go along with this prophecy? Just go, okay, listen, we want this prophecy to be about our guy, but we know you're very busy, but we just need all of you to just become followers of the God of Israel, like from all over the world. And then everyone will know that this prophecy is about our guy.

So you're just not going to be able to do that. Okay. I, uh, I don't think that's, that's going to happen.

So well, you know, let's be open-minded. Is there, are there any other events where a prominent religious leader was executed by very powerful people in the manner that is described? And then this resulted in wide scale worldview changes amongst all the people in the world. Really, honestly, I'm Jesus death and resurrection is the only event from, from all of Jewish history that qualifies.

Um, right. I I'd love to, to, uh, be presented with others that ought to be considered, but I don't know of any, uh, despite my, uh, you know, studies of, of church history and, um, Jewish history and things like that. So.

Right. I mean, if I didn't know any better, I would think this was a Christian description of Jesus death and resurrection, not a Jewish prophecy from a thousand years before Jesus. Yeah.

It was, you know, I could see somebody saying, well, at the beginning, it could be a few different people, but towards the end, you're not going to be able to get these details, you know, to be corrected just as too much, too much for a, you know, a group of humans to be able to, to achieve. Yeah. And we're not done.

So, oh boy. I told the listeners, this was good. Let's look at, uh, verse 29 of Psalm 22.

It says all the prosperous of the earth eat and worship before him shall bow all who go down to the dust. So go down to the dust. Again, it's referring to those who die.

Those who die will bow before him in order for people to bow before him. After they die, people must live after they die. So because this person died and yet will live, there's hope for us that we may live too, after we die.

So, I mean, what does this sound like? It sounds like the gospel. Right. Yeah.

It sounds like the gospel a thousand years before Jesus. That's absolutely incredible. And then we have verses 30 and 31, which say posterity shall serve him.

It shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation. They shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn that he has done it, that he has done this, uh, depending on your translation. Yeah.

This is a tall, tall order. The Psalm ends by proclaiming that this event, whatever this is describing here in Psalm 22, uh, which results in global conversions to the God of Israel and subsequent life after death. This event will be the message that gets recounted to future generations.

So it's not going to result in people of every nation from all the ends of the earth, worshiping the God of Israel immediately. It is going to, but it is, this event is going to be recounted to the future generations. This will be the event that causes people to declare God's righteousness, according to verse 31.

Yeah. All right. So when you look at the entire Psalm, especially towards the end, there are some big things that really make it sound like it's talking about Jesus.

I am shocked that this was written a thousand years before Jesus by a Jewish person. It really reads like a description of Jesus's death and resurrection. Well, not the resurrection yet, but he's looking forward to his resurrection.

He's expecting it. Okay. So if you get the resurrection, then really what Jesus is saying, he's saying the Psalm is about me, you know, right? There's some expectation to live after his death.

Right. It's kind of authenticating what the Psalm is saying we should expect from this in the future. So this big turning of people to God and life after death.

Okay. Right. Yeah.

A lot of people like to pick out one verse here or one sentence there and say, look, this sounds like Jesus. But I think the case is especially strong when you consider the Psalm as a whole, not, you know, and, and, and not be so quick to just point out a few words here and there that sound like Jesus, like, you know, pierced for transgressions or little phrases like that. So this sounds, this sounds a lot like Jesus to me.

It does seem like it's, it's, it's lining up very well with his story of his death. So, you know, some people obviously have looked at this Psalm before and they're saying, no, I don't think it is Jesus. So why don't you tell us about, you know, what the critics say about it and whether their criticisms go through.

Sure. So atheist YouTuber, Aron Raw has claimed that first of all, that this Psalm was written about King David himself and only about King David, that it was not about Jesus. He also claims that David was not a prophet and that Psalm 22 was not prophetic.

Does he have any evidence for his assertions about the authorship of the Psalm and that, you know, do other people like, you know, Jewish people who have studied this, do they think that David was not a prophet and that Psalm 22 was not prophetic? No, he, Aron Raw just, he just claims that these things are so the evidence we have is actually against his views. Oh, okay. Well, tell us about that.

Okay. So Rashi is perhaps the most respected rabbi in Jewish history. He lived from 1040 to 1105 AD.

He is so respected and so widely read among Jews that when Jewish Bibles are printed, his commentary is frequently printed within the Jewish Bible, like side by side so that Jews can read it. Okay. It's that important.

Very prominent Jewish teacher. And he listed 49 male prophets and seven female prophets. And among the 49 male prophets was guess who? David.

King David. Well, you know, Jewish scholars, maybe the YouTube atheist knows more than them about Judaism. Maybe the scholars, right? Rashi also taught that Psalm 22 in particular was about the future suffering of Israel as one man.

So he didn't, he didn't think it was about Jesus, but he did understand it to describe a future event. He did see it as a prediction as future. Yeah.

And prophetic, right. Oh, for Aron. Yes.

In addition, the Talmud says in Sanhedrin 99A that quote, all the prophets prophesied all the good things only in respect of the messianic era. And quote, and also another quote, none of the prophets prophesied except of the days of the Messiah. Okay.

So in other words, every good thing ever prophesied by prophets was related in some way or another to the coming of Messiah. That's, that's pretty significant. Okay.

Yeah. Also a Jewish midrash called Pasikta Rabadi. It's an eighth century Jewish commentary commentary also claimed, quote, it was because of the ordeal of the son of David that David wept saying my strength is dried up like a potsard.

Okay. So you'll recall from when I just read verse 16, a few minutes ago that it said, my, my strength is dried up like a potsard. Right.

Okay. And this important Jewish commentary from the eighth century is saying that it was because of the ordeal of the son of David now, son of David. Yeah.

Son of David is the Jewish way to refer to the Messiah. So, I mean, in other words, according to this Jewish midrash, Psalm 22 is about the Messiah. Wow.

Okay. So Aaron was just wrong on every point. Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah. Wow. Okay.

So there are plenty of reasons to read Psalm 22 as prophecy, even according to the people who gave it to us. So what's another objection to maybe the Psalm itself or the identification of this being about Jesus? Well, some people also like to claim that Psalm 22 verse 16 is a mistranslation that it shouldn't be translated as they have pierced my hands and feet, but rather it should be translated to say, like a lion, my hands and feet. Like a lion, my hands and feet.

That doesn't make any sense. I mean, look at the context. There's no lions there.

This is about somebody getting beat up and even killed. It's not about a trip to the zoo. Yeah.

I mean, like a lion, my hands and feet, that doesn't, doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me either. All right. So I'm going to give a little bit of context here.

Ka'aru means pierced in Hebrew. Ka'ari means like a lion. So the words are very similar.

There's only one letter that's different. Now there are about a dozen Hebrew texts from around 900 AD that say Ka'aru, which means pierced again. The rest say Ka'ari like a lion.

So you might say, wow. So there are a lot more manuscripts that support a translation of like a lion. And my response would be, well, yes, but in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are from a thousand years earlier, the word is actually Ka'aru meaning pierced.

That is the oldest copy of Psalm 22 in the world in the original. It's in the original Hebrew. It's from before Christ.

It's before Christianity. And it says pierced. Yeah.

As Jay Warner Wallace would say, case closed. Right. Right.

If you got the oldest manuscript agreeing with you, that's it. We also have the sub-tuagint, which is even older than the Dead Sea Scrolls. But it's a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.

It's from about 200 BC. So again, this was the work of Jews, not Christians. And it says pierced as well.

Perfect. Okay. So the oldest manuscripts say pierced and some of the later manuscripts also say pierced.

Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah. So I'm definitely going with the oldest manuscripts.

And if there are more manuscripts that agree, the better. Yeah. All right.

Yeah. Typically sources that are closer to the events are more reliable than the stuff that comes later. Okay.

So we talked about the piercing in Psalm 22 and a lot of people have trouble with the idea that the Messiah is going to suffer, you know, that he has to suffer. It's part of his mission to suffer. So when Jesus is invoking Psalm 22, he's saying, well, if I'm the Messiah and I get vindicated, then it is part of the Messiah's job to suffer.

And that's actually not the only time that he's pointed back to something where it's talking about someone who does suffer. He also invokes Isaiah 53, which talks about a suffering servant and in reference to himself. So yeah, that's actually that's recorded in Luke 22, I believe.

Yeah. Luke 22, 35 to 38. Jesus says he links himself to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53.

So yeah, I think the key point is not whether the Messiah suffers. We could expect that or not expect that. The only thing that we're concerned with is does his Messiah get vindicated? And if the Messiah gets vindicated, then the Messiah can do what he wants.

And we shouldn't let our expectations, you know, say, well, he's not the right one. Yeah, that's a really good point. To summarize, Psalm 22 seems like a really good example of reliable prophecy.

Okay. It was written a thousand years before the events it describes. It's not so vague that it could apply to anything as some of the examples we gave in the last episode where it seems to fit really well with the crucifixion and the and life after death and the global proclamation of Jesus.

It doesn't seem to fit well with anything else. I think that's huge as well. Worth noting.

And the objections are soundly refuted by evidence. Yeah. So when it comes to separating Christianity out from other monotheistic religions that are okay with the beginning of the universe and fine tuning, such as Judaism and Islam, you could make two arguments.

The first argument you can make is making a case for the historical evidence for the resurrection. And we covered that in our first episode. Yeah.

Like our first episode ever, not in the series, but right. Our first episode ever was on the evidence for the resurrection. Right.

And then now we have another argument, one that I had here to four neglected from, from fulfill prophecy. That is a really good argument and not at all. Like the crappy examples that we looked at in the previous episode.

Uh, all those really bad examples. I have colored me shocked. Anyway, do you have, obviously I didn't know everything there is to know about apologetics.

Wow. Wow. And we got, and we got that recorded.

That's pretty fun. Yes. I'm learning new things every day from you.

So, uh, do you, yeah, do you have any more comments, final comments about this? Oh yeah. Um, I just want to note that crucifixion had not been invented when this song was written, uh, the Assyrians and Persians began to use a form of crucifixion, uh, 300 years later than the Greeks, then the Romans perfected it to the version that Jesus experienced. So this is just really impressive.

And I think Christians should be in awe of this. I think seekers should look more into this. Um, take this seriously.

I think committed atheists and Jews shouldn't be quick to dismiss Christian prophecy. I really think that this is quite an amazing bit of evidence here. Yeah.

We don't take this argument in isolation, put it together with everything else and then make a decision about which worldview you think best reflects reality. Exactly. All right.

So that sounds like a good place for us to stop for today. Listeners, if you enjoyed the episode, please consider helping us out by sharing this podcast with your friends, writing us a five star review on Apple or Spotify, subscribing and commenting on YouTube and hitting the like button wherever you listen to this podcast. We appreciate you taking the time to listen and we'll see you again in the next one.