Former Muslim Hatun Tash: Debating Islam, Part 2

Knight & Rose Show — Wintery Knight and Desert Rose

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Former Muslim Hatun Tash: Debating Islam, Part 2

September 23, 2023

Knight & Rose ShowWintery Knight and Desert Rose

Wintery Knight and Desert Rose continue our discussion with former Muslim Hatun Tash. We talk about whether deception is permitted in Islam. We discuss what the Qur'an says about women, and what women can expect in the afterlife. We discuss Andrew Tate and whether he is a real Muslim. Finally, we ask Hatun about persevering through challenges to her ministry. This is the second episode in a two part series.

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Show notes: https://winteryknight.com/2023/09/23/knight-and-rose-show-episode-39-former-muslim-hatun-tash-part-2

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Transcript

Welcome to the Knight & Rose Show, where we discuss practical ways of living out an authentic Christian worldview. Today, we're going to continue our discussion with Hatun Tash, evangelist extraordinaire to Muslims. I'm Wintery Knight.

And I'm Desert Rose. So this week, we are back with our guest Hatun Tash, and we are talking about Islam and ministry to Muslims. Welcome back, Hatun.

Thank you very much for having me. Peace of Christ be with you, Thank you. Welcome back, Rose.

Thank you. I'd like to resume our interview with a question about Islam and deception. I've heard that Islam allows for deception as long as it's done for the promotion of Islam.

Is that true? What should people know about Islam and deception? It is sad to say, but yes, what you heard is true. That is in the teachings of Islam. Deception is allowed in Islam.

Surah 3 verse 28 of the Quran talks about it. But before that, there's something much important on this character of our so Allah is the God of Islam, God of the Quran, and the character of Allah is either one of the attributes of Allah is identified as deception. So God who chooses to not be truthful, that's like problem by itself.

Therefore, it is not surprising in Surah verse 28. It has been expressed as deception is okay. Islamic teachings talks about it, deception until end of the day of judgment.

So those teachings are okay. It makes difficult because when you speak individuals who simply don't want to tell you the truth in the intention of promoting Islam discussions can be difficult. Do you find that most Muslims are aware of that attribute of Allah that he's a deceiver? Yes.

Yeah, they are very much aware of it, especially if they are Arabic speakers, but they don't have a problem because they think from that deception, something good comes out of it. It is that character is given to Allah in the concept of regarding the death of Lord Jesus Christ. Islam teaches they did not crucify Jesus.

They did not kill Jesus. And Quran talks about in that context, they wanted to harm him. They planned something, but God planned something better.

So they wanted to deceive, but Allah deceived everyone bigger. And he's not only like deceiver, but he's the best of the deceivers. And he's very proud of verbalizing that like think all the deceptions like Satan is identified another being as a deceiver, but Allah is the best of them.

Wow. We just did an entire show on the crucifixion of Jesus and what the Quran says about it. So yeah, we did get into that.

It surprises me that Muslims know that many Muslims know about Allah's proclivity for deception. And yet they believe that somehow they can trust him like he deceives everybody else except them. Why would he not deceive them? So here's the problem.

Jesus is identified as sinless in Islam. Mary is identified as like according to Islamic teachings, very honorable woman. So she's got whole chapter about her.

Allah is willing to use the sinless person to deceive Mary. Not only that, Allah deceives Muhammad, his beloved prophet, man whom's supposed to be the best example to humanity and last messengers. Allah chooses to deceive him.

Yep. Of course, if Allah chooses to deceive the Mary, mother of Jesus and their prophet, how can they trust if Allah is not going to deceive them or not? That's like just like very shaky ground. Abu Bakr, father in law of Muhammad, the first caliph in Islam states, I wouldn't feel safe from the deception of Allah, even if my one foot is in paradise.

Being unsure of everything is very dangerous and anyone who follows Allah will be unsure of everything. Right. So I really want to ask you this because people ask me this all the time.

Why do any women follow Islam? I mean, why do you think so many women defend Islam so passionately when Islam teaches that women are lacking in intelligence, they're lacking in common sense, in morality. It doesn't seem to promise them anything good or desirable. Why do they passionately defend and follow it? I really don't know.

I really don't know. My options are most of women don't know what Islam teaches. Most of others haven't looked into it.

I'll give you an example. Have you ever come across with a journalist? Yes. You know, they have annoying they are, they ask you questions and then they rephrase the same question and then they rephrase that rephrase question until they get their answer.

They are so annoying. Like they kind of question everything. Right.

Of course, in your listeners, if you've got journalists, just remember you are very much loved by our trying God. It's just like human beings, human beings have problems with you. So a journalist, a female journalist decides who grew up in a church household decides to become a Muslim travels to Muslim countries and then kind of sees, oh, Islam is wonderful and then becomes a Muslim.

I was in a meeting where she was sharing her story, how she become a Muslim. I put my hand up and then I asked the question, how do you reconcile the passages such as husband can be the woman, woman majority of women are going to go to hell. You don't know if as a woman, if you don't know where you are going to end up when you die beside like your option is hell.

This journalist, she's been using for a long time. She said, I haven't had a chance to look into that. So I cannot make a comment what you are saying.

Wow. So they just don't know. I don't know if I can say they don't know like you are journalist.

What happened to your thinking brain? Yeah, very interesting. Well, I just want to say that we did an entire show on the status of women in Islam. And so people want to look that up.

They can find out more. Yeah, please check it because those access there is already the program done. It will break your heart regarding what Allah teaches about women in his last revelation.

I met women who kind of had a struggle of being singleness and then they just thought, oh yeah, I'll marry Muslim Muslim men and then they marry into Islam and then they end up being Muslim. Last week I met in a mosque woman who has been looking into Islam for 10 years. Okay.

Looking into something for 10 years. You would expect that person to be expert. Yeah.

And last year she spent more time to look into that thing. And then she decided to become a Muslim. Wow.

And then I'm just like, okay. How do you reconcile those difficult passages? I never heard them. They are not Islamic.

Islam is beautiful religion. So people who convert into Islam, they are not being told what Islam is about and people didn't look into it versus in Muslim majority countries, Muslims don't know what Islam teaches, especially Muslim women don't know what Islam teaches. I had the account of a woman who was beaten by her husband and she was in hospital for three months.

So Surah four verse 34 of the Quran, Allah gives right to the man to beat their wife. She got out of the hospital. She wants to get divorce.

She turns up to mosque to ask for divorce. And then mosque says, you don't have a right ground to get divorce. So she can't get divorce.

Even though he beat her and she was hospitalized for three months. Yeah, she can't get divorce. So in the conversation, everyone is like, oh, poor woman, oh, poor woman, all this kind of things.

My response was, why do you want to get divorce? Your husband is being faithful Muslim. That's what Allah tells him to do. So he's doing what Allah told him to do.

So why are you getting divorce? She didn't believe what I was saying. I asked her to open up the Quran and read the verse, which I was talking about. She's Arabic speaker.

She read the verse. She read it again. She paused the verse.

She read it again. What do you think next thing she would do? She decided to justify that verse. Wow.

Oh, because I deserved, I didn't do this as he asked me to do so. Wow. So like, once you see this is the first of all, you are in the place of, okay, those teachings can't be in Islamic.

And then once you reconcile, recognize their Islamic teachings, next thing I would expect anyone to run away from that teaching. But people start justifying these things. Yeah.

I've noticed that a lot of women in the Western countries are marrying Muslim men and not realizing what they're getting into by doing that. It's very strange. So let me ask this.

I actually hear horror stories like that one that you've just shared all the time from women who grew up in Christian homes or, you know, they will say, like nominally Christian homes. They didn't actually usually know what the Bible teaches or go to church or they weren't really usually serious about it, but their family claims to be Christian. They claim to be Christian.

And then they meet some, you know, a Muslim man who is kind to them. He might be really handsome. He may treat them with respect that they really like, but it just seems it almost never works out well because of what Islam actually teaches.

And so I know that there are young women out there who may be listening or there are people who have daughters who are approaching marriage age and who may be thinking about marrying a Muslim man. What would you say to them before they do this? There are postural answers to that question. And there are a few logical answers to that question.

Both quick, shorter version of the both answers are do not marry someone who has different fate. Okay. Doesn't matter how lonely, how alone, how you are, like, have your fits are being swept away or what, whatever that term is like when man comes in and sweeps your feet away or something.

Yeah. Sweeps you off your feet. Yes.

So don't fall into those things. Postural answer and theological answer. Don't fall into that.

So think about Solomon. Yep. One of the wisest man on earth after Lord Jesus Christ.

One of the wisest like, what does he say? Above all guard your heart. Above all guard your heart. This is the advice comes from the wisest man on earth after Lord Jesus Christ.

So that that statement should be taken a little bit seriously. Bible talks about we cannot involve with someone who does not share our fate. One Corinthians talks about that.

From practical side of it, why would you like I am Christian. Most important thing in my life is Lord Jesus Christ. Why should I marry with someone who doesn't own Lord Jesus Christ as the most beautiful thing in his life? So what are the other common things I'm going to have with that person? How can you wake up next to someone every morning and knowing actually they hate one of the most beautiful thing in your life.

They hate Lord Jesus Christ. So that's like psychologically very difficult place to be as a Christian. You come home from the work.

First thing you want to do is like sit down with your husband and then read the description and then pray for your day. If you are married to someone who is not a Christian, he's not going to do that. So all the burdens you brought from work is going to stuck in you and you don't have anyone who can help you to bring those things to Lord Jesus Christ.

Like for the spiritual life, it's like very dangerous to yoke with someone who is not part of our family. Like that's like psychologically very, very difficult. I think someone who grew up in a church, looked into the scripture by default, no, they shouldn't be involving those kinds of things.

Above all, guard your heart. And you met with other things. I'm like upset right now about this question is because I like, I see this practical things happening in the world.

Why as a Christian man or Christian woman, you would look outside of the church to marry with someone. Are you telling me God put all ugly individuals, ugly men and ugly woman into church and seriously, you couldn't love one of them. Like, just like that's like posing question for me.

Okay. Rose and I have actually done shows where we talked about what male female relationships are supposed to look like for Christians. And the point that we make is, is that each individual man and woman is primarily responsible to God.

And they have that vertical relationship with God. That's more important than any relationship that they have with anybody else. And the only reason that they should be entertaining romantic relationships is if they can see that this other person is going to participate in and benefit them with respect to their relationship with God.

So it's just incredible to me that somebody who is raised in a Christian home, or who claims to be Christian would actually just kind of put that vertical relationship with God aside, put aside that commitment and say, well, this person is not a spiritual leader. This person is not a moral leader, right? Because I think there are objections to Islamic morality as well. It's very different from Christian morality.

And yet they would say, well, because this person has these other things that I'm looking for, they're tall, they're handsome, or they are shapely. It's a shapely woman, you know, whatever physical appearance, you know, or whatever, that they would choose that over the fit between a man being a good spiritual leader and a moral leader and a woman participating in his plans and producing fruit as part of their joint partnership for God. I don't know if you have anything you want to say to that, but I'm shocked.

I'm shocked that this happens. I'm shocked that people engage in romantic relationships and leave God, leave their Christian commitment completely out of that. That's very surprising to me.

Yeah, it's absolutely foolish. Absolutely foolish. The good looks are going to excite you for, you know, about somewhere between 10 minutes and a few years.

But it's the man's character or the person's character and their commitment to Christ and your mutual commitment to Christ that is going to last a lifetime. I don't know how well the real part of you, but I think three of us at this stage in the age, we know tomorrow we are going to look more older and more uglier. After tomorrow, it's going to be the same.

So we are going to age and we are aging. You can't just like look at people's shape and face and then say, Oh yeah, love of my life. Let me bring, just story came to my mind.

If that's okay, I'll share that. Oh yeah. Yeah.

So have you heard Cambridge university? Yes, it's very difficult though. It's not as difficult as Oxford, but it's difficult to get to that university. So you would expect people who go to that university are like clever individuals.

So a couple of years ago, I went to mosque and then there was this beautiful woman. Like she was like really, really beautiful. Only, only thing I could see was like half of her face, but her eyes, her eyebrow, like you could see she was very pretty.

And then I asked her what she's doing there. She told me she's waiting for husband. I was like, what do you mean? So this young woman who was studying in Cambridge science met with Muslim missionaries.

She got swept off her feet and by, by this Muslim man. Okay. Because he was, and then he was also asking her questions on the day of Jesus authority of the Bible, God of Bible.

And she wasn't able to answer in that moment since she saw this beautiful, handsome Muslim man. She thought Islam makes sense. She becomes a Muslim and then he marries her.

So she was married and she was in a mosque and waiting for husband. I was like, okay, why are you waiting for husband? She explained it to me. Her husband divorced her three times.

So in Islam, there is something called halal marriage, Surah two, 230. When you are divorced third time for you to go back to your first husband, you must marry with someone else and that person divorces you. And then you go back to your first husband.

So she is a woman who is graduated from Cambridge, become a Muslim, married a Muslim man, being divorced by same man and waiting in a mosque to have sex with someone else so that she can go back to her first husband. Wow. And she had no problem with it.

When I asked how can you like just sleep with someone else for five days? Her response was, well, I want to go back to my husband. Wow. Wow.

This is not like someone who you see on the street. A woman who is graduated from Cambridge when it comes to that, you know, like people say love, love, love makes you blind. That this is so worth the phrase.

So love made this woman blind versus biblical love. Like talks about love is kind, love is patient. Love is not something makes you blind.

Don't fall into those phrases like love is patient, love is kind. Love doesn't envy, love doesn't boast. Love is not proud versus people are just blinded by love and they are willingly want to have sex with someone else so that they can fix their marriage.

That's what is on teachers running like marriage and singleness and all that. Right. Sad reality.

Yeah. Without a doubt. So yeah.

So along these lines, uh, I'm sure Hatoon that you've heard of Andrew Tate, everyone is talking about him right now. He's on, he's on camera talking about how he uses fancy cars and sweet talking to convince women to, uh, have sex with him. And then he makes videos of them doing that for money.

What do you think about Andrew Tate and other high profile converts who make Islam look attractive to young people, particularly I would say young men. Well, and rotate is desperately need Lord Jesus Christ. So an individual who is desperately lost likes living in darkness, involved with accusations like prostitution, human trafficking, abusive relationships, violence.

Yeah. It's so still ongoing charges. He's been charged.

He's not being prison yet sentence. Yet. I think such individuals only solution is Lord Jesus Christ.

It's only Lord Jesus Christ can change their hearts and their minds. And as a Christian, we should be praying for those individuals, especially such individuals who has platform to effect or destroy the young man. It's very important.

We put them, we put these individuals in our prayer list for him to become a Muslim. I'm saying this as human. And I know I've got to spend time and repent from this statement tonight, but I think, I think he, he deserves Islam because his lifestyle, human trafficking, violence, pornography, all those kinds of things, abuse of women, it fits well with Islam.

He just fits in there. He just fits right in there. And I am glad that he's not a Christian who is practicing such a things as a Christian.

You can't practice such a things, but you never know how sinful humans are. So he fits just right into it. Yeah.

I think it's shocking like that he is, I think I was asking some male friends who are concerned about what is happening with young men with respect to Andrew Tate. And I was saying, I hope that they don't have a favorable view of Islam from this. And the striking thing is, yeah, Islam fits really well with this way of treating women.

And I was just thinking to myself, like what we were saying before, where I was explaining how Rose and I had done these shows saying that what women are for in Christianity is to serve God. And if you are a man, then if you are not married to a woman, your ambition is to try to inspire her to serve God, to ask her what books do you need? What computer do you have? You know, what, you know, to grow her skills and to motivate her. And this is I'm talking non-romantic.

You just see a woman there. What is interesting about a woman to a man in Christianity is how much does she want to serve God? That is what is compelling to a man. So you could you could be 20 and you could see a 60 year old woman who is interested in serving God.

And you could say, what can I do to help? What can I do to urge you to do that, to help you to do that? And that is just such a different view of women than Islam. And then if you like, for us marriage, I think happens when a man and a woman do this working together to serve God. And they say, well, this is going really well.

If we lived in the same house, this would probably be even easier. Like you were saying before about coming home from work and wanting to talk about work, could talk about the frustration you had where some non-Christian made you feel bad for being a Christian. You know, you want your wife to be able to talk to you about that.

Or you want your husband to be able to talk to you about that. So I really would urge people to consider what male-female relationships look like in Islam, what marriage looks like in Islam, and what male-female relationships are supposed to be in Christianity. And what marriage is supposed to be in Christianity, because I think there's a big difference there.

Islam is not Middle Eastern Christianity. And their views of male-female relationships are different. And their view of marriage is different.

So if you're looking for intimacy and romance and real love, we get our definition of love by looking at how God loved us by sending us His Son. And that affects how we treat people of the opposite sex. So it's a huge difference.

Yeah. So we've talked a little bit about male and female relationships within Islam in this life. But what do most Muslim women expect after this life? We know what men expect, right? They, or at least what they hope for, they're promised lots of food and sex and wine if they're good enough to go to paradise.

But what about women? What do they have to look forward to according to Islam? Beloved of Christ, I am surprised that you are thinking they were, they are expecting something. They know, they know they shouldn't be expecting anything. Just a quick comment.

So like we were just talking about how end rotate fits right into Islam. So the individuals who he deceives are not much. So end rotate is like seventh century Muhammad to like literally like not much difference between them, human trafficking, abuse of human beings, abuse of women, all that.

Right. It's the same, same, same circle of 21st century. Women are not thinking that much about deep what they are going to end up.

They don't, like, have you ever been to Muslim funerals? No, I haven't actually. Not me. Okay.

Well, we are cathere. We can't go to the museum funerals, but probably like sometimes you get this big funeral stake place on television. So you go to museum funeral.

Let's say man died. One of the prayer they do in that funeral is they pray to Allah and then they ask Allah to give better wives to him in paradise than on earth. Wow.

Okay. Like in front of the wife, that's one of the prayer they do. Allah giving better wife than he had here.

So Muslim woman know her husband is going to get different wives and better wives. Muslim woman know her husband is going to have thousands of non-believing boys are serving him. He's going to get all that wine, but answer the question, what the Muslim woman is going to get Allah knows best.

Wow. So main reason is majority of them are in hell. You expressed that you did teaching on that in previous episode, that majority of women, women's are going to be in hell because they are deficient in their mind and in their religion.

Why? Because they are ungrateful today. Your husband, as well as once a month, they bleed. Therefore they are not going to make the Islamic paradise, but out of kindness, Allah, when Allah gives this who is this kind of spiritual, perfect virgin, woman's to man in Islamic paradise, 72 of them out of kindness, Allah is going to take some of women's from hell and then place them in Islamic paradise.

So there will be some kind of hell woman in Islamic paradise. If you're at the end, every Muslim, after they've been punished in hell, they are going to go to heaven at the end. Some of the punishments of those Muslims are going to be given to the Christians and Jews.

But at the end, all Muslims are going to get out of the hell, let's say after million, million years after they've been to hell, when they get to the Islamic paradise is Muslims would say they will get whatever they are desired for. Okay. But there is a problem with that.

If my desire is I don't want my husband to slip around with this beautiful woman, I won't able to get that desire. Right. If my desire, I want to be in the presence of Allah, I won't get such a desire as well.

So overall, I don't know what Muslim woman are going to get in Islamic paradise. If they ever get to Islamic paradise. Yeah.

Well, one thing I've noticed in my conversations with Muslim women is once I get to know them well enough that they feel comfortable sharing, you know, their true fears and emotions and such. I find this consistent, absolute fear, terror of death, complete terror of facing Allah and of what comes next. Have you read the writings about grave punishment? If you know about the grave punishment, you shouldn't be surprised that they are afraid of death.

Good point. Yeah. Let me shift gears a bit and ask you maybe a bit more of a personal question.

I know that you have personally paid a big price for following Jesus. What are some of the types of persecution you have endured and what motivates you to keep going in your ministry? I don't think if I can say I paid big price for following Jesus because Jesus himself gave his heart for me. So comparing that, father gave his son for me, comparing that I'm just living very comfortable life.

What motivates me is Bible makes it very clear those who do not identify Jesus as Messiah, those who do not identify Jesus as the Son of God, they are not going to have eternal life with him. And that is very, very serious. So out of conviction, we want world to know about Jesus.

We want people to drown to Jesus as kind of you try to do your part. Things can become difficult. For example, Islam doesn't give you right to choose your religion.

There is a death penalty for apostates. If you leave Islam, you should get killed. Some schools of Islam, little bit kind, they give three days to a woman to think about it.

But the idea is you should be killed because you left Islam. You are still alive probably. Your family already kicked you out and then cut the contact from you.

So you are not in touch with your family. You never get to see them again. You don't enjoy family times with them anymore.

So that's like that kind of family brokenness. But good thing is in Christ, our brothers and sisters steps in and then offers this beautiful big family to us. So whatever is been taken from us is being given to us by Lord Jesus Christ in the body of Christ.

Of course, showing the evangelism, I don't know like what you know, since you said I know, but joining the evangelism, things can get difficult. So people didn't like Jesus. They spot on him.

They harmed him. They killed him. Right.

And he was willing to die for those who hated him. So if they did that to this perfect one, of course, along the side, people are not going to like what we say, how we say it and we don't do a very good job at all, what we say and how we say it. So I've been, I don't know, I've been beaten.

I've been hospitalized. I've been arrested. I have been stabbed.

I've been made homeless for months, for months and months. But for me, those things are earth. The things will happen every breath I have.

Every breath I give out and take in, it's to honor Lord Jesus Christ. At the end, no one can harm me unless with the permission of Lord Jesus Christ. So everything will happen on his time.

When he says it's time for you to come home, you go home. Life can be very difficult because we live in a society where everyone is against God, especially everyone is against Christian God. But the bottom line is the world don't know any better because they are not in Christ.

So we do our part and then we make sure that they hear about Jesus, make sure that they know Jesus is worthy for them to follow whatever happens. Amen. Yeah, I want to ask you a related question about this before Rose gets to ask another question.

So in the West, we have, okay, so Rose and I are very passionate about apologetics and we often try to get other Christians to read, you know, and listen to debates, listen to lectures, and learn how to answer questions about their Christian faith. And somehow, I think what has happened in the West, and you know, Rose, you can correct me if you haven't seen this, but what I've seen is whatever people are doing as their Christian lives doesn't involve anything challenging. So you can't really say to them, you should consider, you know, reading about how to answer the question of God's existence using a science book, or you can't ask them to learn how to defend the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

Because it seems like Christianity is kind of interpreted as meaning, God is going to be like my butler, you know, he's going to be like a cosmic butler. And when my life gets difficult, I'm going to ask him to make it work out. And his main job is to find me a spouse, and to make me wealthy, and to make my life comfortable, to help me get this job.

It kind of serves us, but it's, Christianity isn't really interpreted as we're going to serve him, you know, we're going to, and we're going to, and more importantly, along with what you said, it's going to be difficult. Some people will not like me. Sometimes I'm going to have to donate to causes, or I'm going to have to have difficult conversations.

And that that's part of the normal Christian life, because like what you said, this is very small potatoes, compared to what Jesus did for us by going up on that cross and dying for our sins. So I'm just wondering, you know, what do you think about this weird perception that many Christians have, that God is there to provide us with comfort, and that we make the decisions about what we want to do in order to achieve happiness, and he's kind of there to make it work out, that we really will, he's going to make it so that we will be happy. Brother, beloved of Christ, it is heartbreaking to hear that in 21st century while we have the privilege of having Bible in our hands, that we don't have the biblical view of the God, but we have our view of God.

And that is very dangerous. People are rewriting their own Bible. It is very, very dangerous.

You read the life of prophets. It doesn't look like they were living under the roses and fall off full trees or homes, homeless paradise. You read the life of like Jesus is doing his last teaching, okay, spans like half of the John gospel for his last days.

How does he finishes before his high high priest prayer? I have told you this thing so that you may have peace in this world, you will have trouble. It doesn't say in this world, you will use me as a servant. In this world, you will have trouble, but take heart.

I have overcome the world. Jesus is warning his disciples, those who truly follow him. Life is going to get awful.

Be ready and be confident. I have overcome it all. I'm not a Greek speaker, but my understanding was in the great commission where it says go and make disciples in Jerusalem, Judea and Samartan and the end of the world.

The phrase with like be my witnesses, phrase be my witnesses is actually be martyred. So like that term is like expectation of when I follow Jesus, I should expect to be martyred. Right.

Like take up your cross and follow me. You read early church, how like kind of they become like they kind of continue the Christian faith. People were given to the lions as lunch.

People were burned in stacks. People knew the moment when I say Jesus is my Lord and my Savior. That's what I mean.

And that if that makes me to be given to the lions as lunch or to burn in the stakes, I am ready to do so. They weren't treating God as they servant or whatever they wanted him to be. Find they like much maker or whatever they expect him to be.

God of Bible makes it clear. If you love me, you can love the world. Yeah.

I think at the very least, there are certain beliefs that we're going to have that are going to be offensive to other people. So, for example, believing that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior is necessary for you to be reconciled with God and that people who don't do that, it really doesn't matter how sincere they are about their religion or how good their life is, how nice their house is, how nice their wife is, how nice their marriage is, how many kids that they have, how many blessings that they have. That's going to be offensive to a lot of people, but we have to accept that.

You know, Jesus has a definition of marriage that he teaches that it's between a man and a woman. And we have to say, well, I follow Jesus. And so that's my definition.

And if that if you disagree with that and you want to fire me, I guess I'm going to be fired. I guess I'm not going to work here anymore. I guess I'm going to be you.

You guys are going to talk bad about me behind my back, you know, and that instead of saying this is terrible, I thought Christianity was going to make me happy. And, you know, by sharing Christian beliefs, everybody would like me. You should understand that you should not expect that and that not only should you not expect it, but that it's a great blessing to identify with Christ in these small ways.

Thank God that you've been born in such a time where you can say faithfully what you believe and that you don't get fed to lions for lunch, but instead say, oh, I am so thankful that the people in my office think terrible things about me because they think I'm dumb because I believe in Christian things. You know, I just would urge people to just not many of us are going to rise to the level of Hetun or to the early church, but we should all have that experience of saying Christianity sets me back with my friends. Some of them don't like me.

Some of them think bad things about me. Sometimes I suffer in my career. Sometimes I suffer with in other ways, but that's okay because I would rather identify with Christ and share in his sufferings.

Yep, that we may be counted worthy to suffer for the name of Christ. It's an honor. It's a privilege.

It's the normal Christian life. Amen. So since we are kind of at the end of our conversation, I just want to leave you with a couple of things.

Yeah, yes, please. Here is my intake from this two episodes we did. There is a desperate need for Jesus in this world, and there is a desperate need for Christians to know who they are and who they are in Jesus Christ.

That is desperate need. And I think we all would agree that. Absolutely.

And there is a big opposition, even though those people are desperately in need of Jesus, but they are also opposing Lord Jesus Christ. People like living in darkness. People don't like changing things.

No one likes changing all that, but investment every individual does when it comes to God, it's about their eternity. And eternity is like very, very long time. That's why they call it eternity.

It's like so long. It's like so long. It doesn't finish.

So decisions we make, it is long term and eternal and especially decisions as a Christian we make. We have consequences of those decisions. We talked about relationship between husband and wife.

How this should happen. At the end, we need to all uphold the scripture. So when it comes to marriage, we've got perfect example of our bridegroom.

We've got Lord Jesus Christ with his death and his resurrection. He declares our righteous and we become his bride. That's like amazing exchange.

All he have becomes ours. Because of his death and his resurrection, we are the individuals who were nobody are giving privilege to call father of Lord Jesus Christ our father. That's like amazing privilege.

And that is like the one who upholds the universe by the power of his word. But reality is always there. Godless society hates Lord Jesus Christ and they need to know Jesus Christ.

Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, you've got to remember perfectly sufficient, perfectly amazing, perfectly glorious God created you because he wanted you. Not he needed you, but he wanted you. Even when you choose to walk away from him, even when you wanted to make money as your God or your husband, your God, your spouse, your relatives, your God, your job, your God, God still didn't give up on you.

Father sends his son to come and give himself for you. Beautiful thing is Lord Jesus Christ doesn't say like, I don't care about them. He steps in this awful, awful and awful world.

In the times when they didn't have running shoes, in the times they didn't have fridge, in the times they didn't have car, like very bad time to live, like they didn't have running water for shower. Imagine that life. He steps into that time, goes across, gets holes in his hand and holes in his feet.

With those holes, he simply screams out and then says, I love you. Turn to me through those holes. He says, I want you to spend that eternity, which is too long with me in heaven.

I want to have fellowship with you until forever. And that until forever never finishes forever. Those things are like very, very deep things.

There are ideologies out there. Once the silent love of God, there are ideologies out there. Once to destroy our beautiful God.

But only, only way these ideologies can be destroyed simply by replace with better ideology. And that is the love of Lord Jesus Christ of our humanity. So wherever you stand, if you stand, oh, I'm not capable to change anyone's life, or I am just nobody, I don't know the arguments.

Just remember, eternal son of the father give his life for you because he loved you. We are his plan A. He doesn't have plan B or plan C. We are his hands and his feet to go out and preach the gospel. And the world desperately, desperately needs it.

Even though it is very hard for us to look around and say, yeah, this world deserves Jesus. Like I am human. I know I have to take time again to repent what I'm going to say now, but I look at the world and I just like, I don't deserve God.

The world doesn't deserve God, but people are desperately in need of God. Light and darkness cannot live together. Lord Jesus Christ is the light to this darkness.

There is no any other alternative. So wherever you stand, remember Jesus is worthy for all we do, all we think, all we say. And brothers and sisters, thank you very much for having me today.

Thank you so much. So that's all the time we have for this episode. Hatoon, I just want to say again, thank you so much for joining us.

This has been such an interesting discussion and I'm sure our listeners will learn a lot from your words and from your life experience and your example. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider helping us out by sharing this podcast with your friends, writing a five star review on Apple or Spotify, subscribing and commenting on YouTube and hitting the like button wherever you listen to this podcast. We appreciate you taking the time to listen and we'll see you again in the next one.